Another Nocti 1.2 Asph?

[105012]

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There is the Leica Noctilux 1.2 Asph, the rather wonderful Voigtlander Nokton 1.2 (double) Asph and now a replica of the first from LLL?

https://photorumors.com/2022/06/20/light-lens-lab-50mm-f-1-2-asph-1966-lens-for-leica-m-mount-sample-photos/

Edited June 20, 2022 by 105012

[Capuccino-Muffin]

🤢

[pippy]

Thanks for the head's-up, 105012; very exciting news!

The (possible!) possibility of acquiring a lens which - if the performance of their '8 Element' / 'reverse-engineered' v1 35mm Summicron release is anything to go by - might offer extremely-close-to the rendering of the original 50mm f1.2 Noctilux for those of us without the neccessary c.£70,000 lying around which would be required to snag an original in excellent condition?

I can imagine that 'Leica Snobs' will be apoplectic! So Funny!!!......

Looking forward to this very much indeed.

Philip.

Edited June 20, 2022 by pippy

[Capuccino-Muffin]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

Thanks for the head's-up, 105012; very exciting news!

The (possible!) possibility of acquiring a lens which - if the performance of their '8 Element' / 'reverse-engineered' v1 35mm Summicron release is anything to go by - might offer extremely-close-to the rendering of the original 50mm f1.2 Noctilux for those of us without the neccessary c.£70,000 lying around which would be required to snag an original in excellent condition?

I can imagine that 'Leica Snobs' will be apoplectic! So Funny!!!......

Looking forward to this very much indeed.

Philip.

Since when are Rolex owners “apoplectic” of Swatch?

[hdmesa]

Why why why the Noct f/1.2 and not the Noct f/1? 😭

[pippy]

33 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Why why why the Noct f/1.2 and not the Noct f/1? 😭

Because the f1.2 has multiple, complex optical abberrations which, in modern folklore, have become "The Stuff of legend" so it is now, unequivocably, The Best Thing Ever. The rarity aspect of the f1.2 (and its undoubted inherent value) might just be a factor? The f1 on the other hand?...

Discuss!

Philip.

[hdmesa]

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3 minutes ago, pippy said:

Because the f1.2 has multiple, complex optical abberrations which, in modern folklore, have become "The Stuff of legend" so it is now, unequivocably, The Best Thing Ever. The rarity aspect of the f1.2 (and its undoubted inherent value) might just be a factor? The f1 on the other hand?...

Discuss!

Philip.

I dunno. Some examples from the new Leica version look like a bokeh clown car 🤡🚙 Maybe I'm not reading the thread on the re-release of the Leica Noct 1.2 here right then, because there seemed to be initial excitement that was slowly replaced by disappointment as people started getting theirs. "Not sharp anywhere at f/1.2", less than desirable bokeh, etc. 

[105012]

I’m very happy with the Nokton 1.2, so this LLL 1.2 isn’t for me, but I hadn’t seen it mentioned here and thought it might be of interest to someone. I’m glad that’s the case. There is a diversity of reasons for our interest in these, some would only want to collect the original, some would be interested in trying out something similar to the original for artistic (or just plain fun) reasons, etc.

[Huss]

I have the LLL 35mm 8 Elements, but frankly I am tapped out now.  It's just too much stuff!  Already have too many 50s, and they all are great, and they all don't get enough use!

[pippy]

7 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I dunno. Some examples from the new Leica version look like a bokeh clown car 🤡🚙......there seemed to be initial excitement that was slowly replaced by disappointment as people started getting theirs. "Not sharp anywhere at f/1.2", less than desirable bokeh, etc. 

I didn't pay much attention to the thread, hdmesa, but if I were to make a guess I'd suspect that there will be many different reasons why certain buyers might have been disappointed with the f1.2 re-issue.

Perhaps unfamiliarity with what they were buying into may have been high-up on the list? I've never used an original f1.2 - nor, I suspect, ever will - but having read through many threads which deal with the differences between the f1.2; the f1.0 and the f0.95 I am fairly aware of how each version renders and, subsequently, would know not expect the NEW f1.2 to return razor-sharp images wide open - minor tweaks over the original notwithstanding.

You will know this already, of course, but each version of the 50 Nocti has its own strengths and weaknesses. If crisp images wide-open are what one wishes to obtain then the f0.95 is streets ahead of the f1.2.

I think 105012 put it very well in the post which followed your own (which I quoted above) when he writes;

6 hours ago, 105012 said:

...There is a diversity of reasons for our interest in these, some would only want to collect the original, some would be interested in trying out something similar to the original for artistic (or just plain fun) reasons, etc.

Having worked closely with specialist dealers in the world of Antiques and Collectibles for the last 20 years or so I'm acutely aware of the mind-set of those who seek out 'The Beautiful and The Rare' so fully understand the fascination with the original f1.2. For those of us whose pockets are less deep I can also see the strong attraction of Leica's recent re-working as it opens-up the chance for many photographers to acquire something which approaches the original in terms of looks and rendering for a fraction of the cost of a '60s example.

As it happens out of the three (main) versions of the Noctilux I do prefer how the f1.2 'draws' when used wide-open. It's not a 'perfect' lens - far from it - but I simply do like how it performs. Had I been one of those who bought the 'reworked' f1.2 I'm sure there would have been no disappointment as I understand what it offers and would embrace the lens; not despite its shortcoming but because of them.

I almost never use any lens wide-open. I'm not the type for whom Boke is all-important; it really doesn't excite me much at all. But there are some situations where I do like the paper-thin DoF which a 50 f1 (or whatever) can provide. To this end I picked up, several years ago, a pair of the 7A f1.1 lenses and, so far, they have fulfilled my f1.1 shooting-needs nicely. As an unexpected bonus they also perform very well indeed when stopped-down and so it is a lens which can cover many bases. For the more 'Artistic' look I have a 50mm f1.5 Summarit and love its crazy wide-open rendering. For everything else I have my v4 Summicron which is as perfect a 50 as I will ever require.

For someone like myself the LLL 50 f1.2 could be the ideal option for this particular type of lens. If LLL have managed to get this lens as close to the Leica original as they managed with their recent '8 Element' 35mm f2 reverse-engineered offering then, IMO, it will be a very attractive proposition.

Philip.

[geddon_jt]

Mark de Paola gets a lot out of his Noct 1.2 but it seems like unless you are copying his unique signature style there are much better options.

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, pippy said:

I didn't pay much attention to the thread, hdmesa, but if I were to make a guess I'd suspect that there will be many different reasons why certain buyers might have been disappointed with the f1.2 re-issue.

Perhaps unfamiliarity with what they were buying into may have been high-up on the list? I've never used an original f1.2 - nor, I suspect, ever will - but having read through many threads which deal with the differences between the f1.2; the f1.0 and the f0.95 I am fairly aware of how each version renders and, subsequently, would know not expect the NEW f1.2 to return razor-sharp images wide open - minor tweaks over the original notwithstanding.

You will know this already, of course, but each version of the 50 Nocti has its own strengths and weaknesses. If crisp images wide-open are what one wishes to obtain then the f0.95 is streets ahead of the f1.2.

I think 105012 put it very well in the post which followed your own (which I quoted above) when he writes;

Having worked closely with specialist dealers in the world of Antiques and Collectibles for the last 20 years or so I'm acutely aware of the mind-set of those who seek out 'The Beautiful and The Rare' so fully understand the fascination with the original f1.2. For those of us whose pockets are less deep I can also see the strong attraction of Leica's recent re-working as it opens-up the chance for many photographers to acquire something which approaches the original in terms of looks and rendering for a fraction of the cost of a '60s example.

As it happens out of the three (main) versions of the Noctilux I do prefer how the f1.2 'draws' when used wide-open. It's not a 'perfect' lens - far from it - but I simply do like how it performs. Had I been one of those who bought the 'reworked' f1.2 I'm sure there would have been no disappointment as I understand what it offers and would embrace the lens; not despite its shortcoming but because of them.

I almost never use any lens wide-open. I'm not the type for whom Boke is all-important; it really doesn't excite me much at all. But there are some situations where I do like the paper-thin DoF which a 50 f1 (or whatever) can provide. To this end I picked up, several years ago, a pair of the 7A f1.1 lenses and, so far, they have fulfilled my f1.1 shooting-needs nicely. As an unexpected bonus they also perform very well indeed when stopped-down and so it is a lens which can cover many bases. For the more 'Artistic' look I have a 50mm f1.5 Summarit and love its crazy wide-open rendering. For everything else I have my v4 Summicron which is as perfect a 50 as I will ever require.

For someone like myself the LLL 50 f1.2 could be the ideal option for this particular type of lens. If LLL have managed to get this lens as close to the Leica original as they managed with their recent '8 Element' 35mm f2 reverse-engineered offering then, IMO, it will be a very attractive proposition.

Philip.

I get all that. I just personally would rather have a 1.0 reproduction since I prefer that rendering. Not sure the 1.0 is old enough to be out of copyright protection, though.

I’ve considered the 1.2 reissue myself since I’ve burnt myself out on shooting with perfect lenses and having recently adopted a 35 Lux pre-ASPH. But I think I’d prefer the Leica version over a LLL since I can get the Leica new (versus compared to a LLL 8 element 35/2, which I can’t get new from Leica). I’m curious to know if Leica got a new copyright for the reissue — that might complicate a LLL version from being sold in some places.

Edited June 21, 2022 by hdmesa

[Jon Warwick]

1 hour ago, geddon_jt said:

Mark de Paola gets a lot out of his Noct 1.2

Yes, I’d agree, and IMHO his images are all the more unique and beautiful for him mastering that lens over the decades. To my eyes, his work definitely has a de Paola look, and I really like it.

[pippy]

9 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

...I just personally would rather have a 1.0 reproduction since I prefer that rendering...

...I’ve considered the 1.2 reissue myself since I’ve burnt myself out on shooting with perfect lenses and having recently adopted a 35 Lux pre-ASPH...

...I’m curious to know if Leica got a new copyright for the reissue — that might complicate a LLL version from being sold in some places...

Interesting points.

As far as the question of 'Why not the f1?' goes (which you raised in post #5 and I forgot to address)? I'm not convinced that ther would be sufficient demand for the return of the f1.

For those - such as yourself - who prefer that version examples can still be found in 'Excellent+' condition for very reasonable sums (in LeicaWorld/Noctilux terms) therefore it is readily possible to buy one for considerably less than the asking price of any prospective reissue. One London dealership currently has four f1 examples all priced within around £200 of each other and the cost-saving of taking one of these over the f1.2 reissue is between £1,700 and £1,900 (and the saving over a standard black-chrome f0.95 is £5.5k!).

Having bought a 1974 v2 35mm Summilux myself last November I can appreciate where you are coming from on that score. Previously I was not much of a '35 guy' but it became my #1 lens practically from the first day.

The copyright question is curious. I know that when LLL designed the 8-Element v1 Summicron re-creation it was done in such a manner that parts between the two lenses are non-interchangeable. Diameters of lens elements are sized differently etc...etc...This, it seems, was a very deliberate choice on behalf of LLL who didn't want to give counterfeiters an easy ride by swapping 'bits' out to cheat would-be buyers of the genuine Leica article. Whether enough was changed so as to render any paptents null-and-void, of course, would be a matter for lawyers...

Philip.

[wizard]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb pippy:

Whether enough was changed so as to render any paptents null-and-void, of course, would be a matter for lawyers...

Any patents on the Leica 8-element v1 Summicron 35 will long have expired. The maximum duration of patents in most countries is 20 years. 

[pippy]

57 minutes ago, wizard said:

Any patents on the Leica 8-element v1 Summicron 35 will long have expired. The maximum duration of patents in most countries is 20 years. 

Hi. Yes; thanks, Wizard. Sorry! I was actually talking about the possible patents for the recent f1.2 which point was raised originally by hdmesa in post #13 but I got a bit mixed-up at the end of my earlier post as I meant to get back to the upcoming LLL 50 f1.2 and not their 8-Element.

The design of the original 50 f1.2 will have been out-of-date prior to the Leica re-release but if Leica took out new patents for their 'new' Noctilux which also happen to cover bits of the older design things might be slightly less clear-cut. Again; I've no idea as I'm not a lawyer!

Apologies for any confusion caused by my brain-fart; very much mea culpa I'm afraid!...

Philip.

Edited June 21, 2022 by pippy

[Capuccino-Muffin]

We may call it “reissue”, but I much prefer to see it as a production run.  
 

Wether the next production run takes place in 8 Months or 35 years is unimportant. It’s their product, their design, their management, their business philosophy. In a few years down the road this shall not be the “reissue” anymore but simply the noctilux f1.2 V2 (second edition).

A funny thing, when voigtlander came out with their present lens aesthetic designs (which copy Leica’s 1950’s style), some people that don’t know Leica’s history that well thought and voiced in a connoisseur manner that Leica’s 50mm summilux/summicron LHSA and the subsequent Black Chrome offerings were actually copies of  the Voigtlander aesthetic 🤣

[Huss]

2 hours ago, pippy said:

 

The copyright question is curious. I know that when LLL designed the 8-Element v1 Summicron re-creation it was done in such a manner that parts between the two lenses are non-interchangeable. Diameters of lens elements are sized differently etc...etc...This, it seems, was a very deliberate choice on behalf of LLL who didn't want to give counterfeiters an easy ride by swapping 'bits' out to cheat would-be buyers of the genuine Leica article. Whether enough was changed so as to render any paptents null-and-void, of course, would be a matter for lawyers...

Philip.

LLL did make a deliberate decision for the parts to NOT be interchangeable.  And I applaud them for that.

[pippy]

7 hours ago, Al Brown said:

..."Light Lens Labs does not have a website or a way of purchasing a lens online but they do ship internationally."...

One of their dealers in EU stopped working with them completely due to all the difficulties in dealing with the company. Not chinese whispers, first hand info - I could not order a LLL lens from him anymore, nor would he forward my request to LLL...

Yesterday I filled-out the 'keep me informed (or whatever)' page included in the photorumours link and today I received a reply from 'Peter' (photorumours admin?) saying that my query had been cc'd to 'David' who, I'm told, is a rep. for LLL.

Let's see what happens but, financially speaking, the current situation concerning imports to the UK might very well be a deal-breaker when all's said and done.

If LLL can get a dealership/outlet in continental Europe things might be simpler but for the time being the offering is merely a very interesting proposition.

Philip.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[a.noctilux]

When we need some kind of "adjustment/repair/what else?" how this is handle the situation by LLL people ?

Edited June 21, 2022 by a.noctilux