Q2M Cropping and shutter speed

[clasami]

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When I use the crop mode on my Sony FF cameras, the shutter speed increases to reflect the equivalent focal lenght. The Q2M doesn't. Is that an oversight by Leica or is increasing shutter speed when cropping not neccessary?

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[jankap]

There is no reason for that. The lens does not change its aperture. Only the maximum exposure time, if one shoots handheld, could be a reason.

Formerly (with film) it was said, that the exposure time should be smaller than 1/focal length, so 1/50sec with a 50mm lens. With sensors instead of film one should better expose shorter. Of course IBIS changes this would-be rule.

Edited May 27, 2022 by jankap

[clasami]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb jankap:

There is no reason for that. The lens does not change its aperture. Only the maximum exposure time, if one shoots handheld, could be a reason.

Formerly (with film) it was said, that the exposure time should be smaller than 1/focal length, so 1/50sec with a 50mm lens. With sensors instead of film one should better expose shorter. Of course IBIS changes this would-be rule.

The 1/FL rule is well known. Still, Sony does increase shutter speed when the crop is used on FF. So with a 50mm lens, it goes from 1/60 to 1/100 when crop mode is on (and FOV tunrns into a 75mm). Q2M does not. It stays at 1/50 no matter what the crop is (28/35/50/75). Now, I rarely use 75mm crop, but I do set the shutter to at least 1/125 when I do use it. Am I wrong and I could just leave it at 1/50?

[hansvons]

It‘s just a crop. Motion blur, all things equal, remains the same. No need for shutter compensation.

[clasami]

vor 53 Minuten schrieb hansvons:

It‘s just a crop. Motion blur, all things equal, remains the same. No need for shutter compensation.

Thanks. That's what I thought. But the way Sony does it made me wonder.

[adan]

1 hour ago, hansvons said:

It‘s just a crop. Motion blur, all things equal, remains the same. No need for shutter compensation.

Yes. But a 30x45 cm print from each ("75mm" crop enlarged ~3x more than 28mm full image) will reveal blur or shake that will not be obvious in a same-sized print using the full 28mm field of view.

Shake blurs are inversely proportional to the final angle of view.

[jaapv]

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Yes, but do you REALLY want the camera to chaperone you or do you want to make your own photographic decisions?  I would suggest that this underlines the different approaches that Leica and Sony have.

[clasami]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

Yes, but do you REALLY want the camera to chaperone you or do you want to make your own photographic decisions?  I would suggest that this underlines the different approaches that Leica and Sony have.

It is called "automatic mode" and sometimes comes in handy - even with the Leica. And if it makes sense and helps, even better.

[clasami]

vor 49 Minuten schrieb adan:

Yes. But a 30x45 cm print from each ("75mm" crop enlarged ~3x more than 28mm full image) will reveal blur or shake that will not be obvious in a same-sized print using the full 28mm field of view.

Shake blurs are inversely proportional to the final angle of view.

Hmm. Enlarging a photo will show imperfections like lack of sharpness more. No question. But does cropping increase the risk of blur when I take the image? And if so: Why? When the image is enlarged in the EVF, slight movement is a lot more visible than as if there is no magnification. That would support that a higer shutter speed is needed to achieve critical focus when using crop mode. But on the other hand, the 75mm crop modus has a much lower resolution. Shouldn't hat reduce how much impact movements have on sharpness?

[LocalHero1953]

By coincidence I have just posted some of my early experiences with the Q2 in which I commented on this. I find it irritating. Yes, the behaviour is obvious and logical, but other aspects of the Q2's operation change when you select 'longer focal lengths' (exposure metering, AF) so why not the 1/f setting? You see the full frame when you take your picture, the preview looks acceptably sharp (at 28mm), but then you find you have motion blur when you look at the crop in LR. If it's going to use digital zoom, then every aspect of picture taking should reflect it - or just leave it out.

46 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Yes, but do you REALLY want the camera to chaperone you or do you want to make your own photographic decisions?  I would suggest that this underlines the different approaches that Leica and Sony have.

I'm afraid you lost your choices when you stopped mixing your own wet emulsions. The chaperone has been sitting in the corner doing her knitting for about a century. She's now called AutoISO or Aperture Priority.

Edited May 27, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

Auto-Iso is a rather moribund spinster aunt with me, whilst AE has a sore behind from being kicked in the right direction.  

[jaapv]

On EVF cameras I always adjust AE by the Histogram, on the M I am on Manual and I don't even know how to activate Auto-Iso. 

[marchyman]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

so why not the 1/f setting?

My guess: the crop is only a suggestion.  Data from the entire sensor is written to the DNG and the crop can be ignored or adjusted in post processing.

And a question: if you take a picture with a camera that does not have crop or zoom modes and you know you are going to crop it in post to you increase your shutter speed?

[clasami]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb marchyman:

My guess: the crop is only a suggestion.  Data from the entire sensor is written to the DNG and the crop can be ignored or adjusted in post processing.

And a question: if you take a picture with a camera that does not have crop or zoom modes and you know you are going to crop it in post to you increase your shutter speed?

Well, it is more than a suggestion. As someone else observed, Leica does use the data from within the crop frame for exposure and AF.

I think it is accpeted knowledge that the 1/FL rule needs to be adjusted for drop cameras where the FoV changes by a factor of 1.5 (e.g. Sony). So the rule for APS-C cameras is 1/Flx1.5. That should apply to the crop mode as well, shouldn't it?

[clasami]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

On EVF cameras I always adjust AE by the Histogram, on the M I am on Manual and I don't even know how to activate Auto-Iso. 

Well, I know men (and very few women) in Europe who will not get into a car with auto transmission because it takes a way the driving experience. Me, I love auto modes on any machine that make my job easier. Provided, however, that they work as advertised. Face detection that doesn't work is useless. Same for Auto ISO, AF and Exposure. It takes practice and experience to use auto modes to ones advantage. 

[LocalHero1953]

8 hours ago, marchyman said:

My guess: the crop is only a suggestion.  Data from the entire sensor is written to the DNG and the crop can be ignored or adjusted in post processing.

And a question: if you take a picture with a camera that does not have crop or zoom modes and you know you are going to crop it in post to you increase your shutter speed?

Forgetting logic, history etc, for me it's simply whether the camera gets out of the way of taking a photo or gets in the way by reason of its behaviour*. Because Leica has already made a 'thing' about the crop modes, my mind expects the camera to behave accordingly. It doesn't, so it's a distraction from taking the photo.
YMMV 

 

* This is one of the main reasons I use Leica cameras and not one that can take equally good or better images - because they get out of the way.

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, clasami said:

Well, I know men (and very few women) in Europe who will not get into a car with auto transmission because it takes a way the driving experience. Me, I love auto modes on any machine that make my job easier. Provided, however, that they work as advertised. Face detection that doesn't work is useless. Same for Auto ISO, AF and Exposure. It takes practice and experience to use auto modes to ones advantage. 

Adjusting AE (and AI) by the histogram and EV comp. is similar to controlling an automatic car by the accelerator. I dislike Auto ISO because it is not a primary exposure factor but a secondary one enabling the two primary exposure settings shutter speed and aperture. This are the only ones that control the image. ( With focus of course) 

[clasami]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

Adjusting AE (and AI) by the histogram and EV comp. is similar to controlling an automatic car by the accelerator. I dislike Auto ISO because it is not a primary exposure factor but a secondary one enabling the two primary exposure settings shutter speed and aperture. This are the only ones that control the image. ( With focus of course) 

That was true when ISO increase above base came with a heavy penalty in terms of noise. The huge advanatge of my Q2M is that I don't need to worry about noise up to a vey high ISO setting. That allows me to adjust the primary values that control the image to set as I like to stop action, reduce shake, or increase DoF. And the beauty is that I don't have to think about it. Rather, I can concentrate on the subject matter. Likewise, the new highlight protection mode allows me to shoot with confidence that non-recoverable highlights are protected. Don't have to keep an eye on the histo which distracts me from keeping my eye on the subject.

No question, certain styles of photography allow for a careful manual setup and all. Mine (street and social events) benefits greatly from the well implemented auto functions.

 

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[jaapv]

That only strengthens my argument. You don’t see a difference in a photograph when you change ISO to allow for changing light. - except possibly  for technical deterioration. Changing aperture and shutter speed will change the photographic content. . The only thing ISO does on a digital camera is saving  you the bother of changing films. Aperture, shutter speed and focus are the classic triangle for creating a photograph, ISO is the secondary enabler. 
Are you arguing that a manual camera like a Leica M is not suitable for event and street? That will come as a surprise to many members here. 

[clasami]

vor einer Stunde schrieb jaapv:

That only strengthens my argument. You don’t see a difference in a photograph when you change ISO to allow for changing light. - except possibly  for technical deterioration. Changing aperture and shutter speed will change the photographic content. . The only thing ISO does on a digital camera is saving  you the bother of changing films. Aperture, shutter speed and focus are the classic triangle for creating a photograph, ISO is the secondary enabler. 
Are you arguing that a manual camera like a Leica M is not suitable for event and street? That will come as a surprise to many members here. 

Auto ISO allows me to set shutter speed and aperture according to what is needed for the photographic content - and let auto ISO deal with changing light situations. It frees my mind from the "secondary enabler" and allows better focus on the primary enablers and the subject.

Manual cameras are perfectly fine for street and social events. I am using zone and DoF all the time. Yet, there are a number of situations where fast and accurate face (and eye) AF are "primary enablers" to obtain sharp images at wide apertures.

The final image won't show whether it was taken in full manual or by using some automated feature. The more I can focus on my subject and forget about camera settings, the higher my hit rate will be in terms of images that I (and possibly others) like.

Of course, I can also hear a certain "proudness" when folks say they don't use and need those modern "auto" gimmicks. Like a veteran pilot refusing to switch on Auto Pilot cause that takes the experience away (unlike my young colleagues, I can fly this thing by hand). All fine. I prefer using Fuji gear over Sony cause it allows me to more directly control functions - though I have to admit that at the end of the day, I don't even use the dedicated speed and exposure comp dials, but rather assign those functions to the front and back wheel of the cameras cause they are better to reach.