The 75 f1.4, Canada

[edstock]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I need too say a couple of words about the 75 f 1.4 Summilux. To some Leica people the word Canada sends chills down their spines. Only made in Germany is their mantra. Well the real truth is that it was Canada that saved Leitz by producing the M4, M4-2 and the M4-P and a number of lenses. I have a 75 f 1.4 that I have been using for a lot of years, both professionally and personally. Editors and publishers liked the quality of the images I made with my 75 f 1.4. Most people seem to forget that Leitz sent many craftsmen from the Leitz factory Germany, to the Leitz factory Canada. Other than geographical everything is the same. IMHO.

[adan]

No argument from me. I seek out "LEITZ - Made in Canada" lenses in most cases. 21/28/35 lux/50 cron/90TEM. Just chose a Canadian 35 Summilux over a 35 Summicron ASPH (same price - used - for either). My 135 f/4.0 TE is German-built (ELCAN never make those - 😡 ), but reportedly designed by Dr. Mandler in Canada.

(Full disclosure:  I currently use a Voigtländer 75mm Nokton f/1.5, for the significant weight difference (350g vs. ~600g). But it is clear the Cosina optics folks looked to the original Canadian 75mm Summilux design (E58 filters, no built-in hood - left image below) for their inspiration.

And not made in Germany either. )

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited May 6, 2022 by adan

[shirubadanieru]

The most unique lenses in Leica’s lineup had all batches produced (or designs originated) in Canada! For example, Summilux 35 v1/v2 pre-asph, 8 elements 35mm, noctilux 50mm, etc

[lct]

I have nothing against Canada of course but my M4 was made in Germany and was solid as a tank. I would not say the same about my Canada made M4-2 that i had to return in the eighties for a fragile shutter. As for lenses, some plastic have been used in Canada made lenses like Summicron 35/2 v4 and Summicron 50/2 v4. The German version of same lenses have lost those plastic parts AFAIK. Not to say that all lenses made in Canada were fragile, by far, but this can explain some difference in reputation.

[laichiu0523]

8 hours ago, adan said:

No argument from me. I seek out "LEITZ - Made in Canada" lenses in most cases. 21/28/35 lux/50 cron/90TEM. Just chose a Canadian 35 Summilux over a 35 Summicron ASPH (same price - used - for either). My 135 f/4.0 TE is German-built (ELCAN never make those - 😡 ), but reportedly designed by Dr. Mandler in Canada.

(Full disclosure:  I currently use a Voigtländer 75mm Nokton f/1.5, for the significant weight difference (350g vs. ~600g). But it is clear the Cosina optics folks looked to the original Canadian 75mm Summilux design (E58 filters, no built-in hood - left image below) for their inspiration.

And not made in Germany either. )

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Version 1 of 75 Summilux should be E60???

[adan]

2 minutes ago, laichiu0523 said:

Version 1 of 75 Summilux should be E60???

Nope - there was a brief original version that had a separate lens hood and was E58.

Check into the history of the lenses introduced around 1980, and you will find that within about a year, many of them underwent cosmetic revisions in the external metal parts (not the optics). Including changes in filter diameter.

21 f/2.8 - very briefly made (or protoyped in several copies) as an E49 lens (and displayed that way in the 1980 brochure for the Leica M4-P), and then changed to E60.

https://collectiblend.com/Lenses/Leitz/21mm-f2.8-Elmarit-M-(BM,-early,-E49).html

28 f/2.8 v.3 - began with a narrow "wasp-waist" between the focus and aperture rings, then quickly changed to a more consistent width front to back.

First version:

Revised version

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

75mm Summilux - as previously mentioned, and displayed above in post #2. E58 briefly, and then E60 for the rest of its existence.

50mm Noctilux f/1.0 (a bit earlier, 1976) originally also E58 with no hood built in, then also changed to E60, and then added built-in lens hood.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/50mm_f/1_Noctilux-M

90mm Summicron v.3 - originally made for E49 filters, with a long built-in lens hood that covered the aperture ring when retracted. Then revised to E55, with a shorter hood.

The 28 v.3, 35 Summicron v.4 and 50mm Summicron v.4 were made variously with so-called "tiger-claw" or "tiger-paw" focusing tabs: convex with ribbing - and then with smooth concave focus tabs.

I have never figured out why so many lenses of that generation went through such rapid mechanical revisions: User feedback? Cleaner look? Parts standardization and consistency? Demanded by the mother-ship in Wetzlar? Simply reconsidered by ELCAN?

But as I mentioned, I love that era of lenses, and have owned or at least seen or borrowed all the variations in the past 20 years (except the extremely rare E49 21mm f/2.8, but including the E58 75mm Summilux).

[Gobert]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Same here to me. I have nothing against Canadian lenses and bodies as long as they are Made in Germany.

[satijntje]

I love those „Made in Canada“ Summiluxes 🙂

BTW, my  75 Summilux f1.4 manufactured in 1980 has a E60 thread.
This is getting a rare lens I believe.
For the version with the external Sunhood, only one is currently available on Germany Ebay for a price above 5k€.

Collectors Item?
 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[lct]

1 hour ago, satijntje said:

[...] my  75 Summilux f1.4 manufactured in 1980 has a E60 thread [...]

I always thought the Summilux 75/1.4 v1 (11814) has a removable hood and E58 filters but my Leitz catalogs from 1981 and 1982 give it E60 filters. See pdf attached. Have you ever seen a E58 version in person or in photos? Just curious.

LeicaM_7514_11814_specs.pdf

[skueh]

To my understanding, the Germany version V3 (11810, 560g) is 40g lighter than the Canadian version V2 (11815, 600g). Other than the costing, there is no difference on the optical formulas.

[grahamc]

7 hours ago, lct said:

I always thought the Summilux 75/1.4 v1 (11814) has a removable hood and E58 filters but my Leitz catalogs from 1981 and 1982 give it E60 filters. See pdf attached. Have you ever seen a E58 version in person or in photos? Just curious.

LeicaM_7514_11814_specs.pdf 216.55 kB · 2 downloads

Interested to hear the answer to.  I had thought that it was the 50:1 Noc that changed from E58 to E60, changing around the same time that the 75:1.4 was first issued - then shared the same E60 hood (#12539)

The 'first version' 75:1.4 's I can find online are all E60's consistent with your catalogue, but if E58 75:1.4's exist I'm intrigued, especially as I can't find a E58 50:1 hood that I need - Maybe I can find a 75:1.4.   

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by grahamc

[grahamc]

While we are on the subject of version changes, can I briefly ask a related question : 

Considering this lens was in production for so long 1979 - 2007 (?), can we assume changes in the coatings between versions ?  

I have 2 other lenses, first released same year 1979 and with very long production lifespans .... a 35:2 v4 and 50:2 v4.  By co-incidence my copies were both manufactured in 1993. I have discovered that they render colour almost identically to my eye, which is really nice and also convenient.  

I would like to add a 75:1.4 to the collection at some point - So it got me thinking about how similarly lenses of different focal lengths from the same year of production 'might' render colour.

Considering the first issues of these lenses (plus the 90:2 and 28:2.8 v3) was all in 1979 by Walter Mandler - I wonder if they all match up to some degree for colour, and if so how much we could expect this good match to be amplified by lenses from same year / stage in the production history.
 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by grahamc

[adan]

As to the filter size for the 75mm, Laney's Leica Collectors Guide (1992) says "Early  E58; current  E60".

As to coatings, we should remember those are applied to cancel out air/glass reflections (destructive interference) and flare and increase contrast - not to balance the color of the light passing through the lens. Especially since the advent of multi-coating (1970s) with layers to "destroy" reflections across all different colors/wavelengths.

If we see a lens with a yellowish or blue-ish or purple-ish reflection from the coating, that doesn't mean the lens will pass different colors of light. It is just the top-most layer in the stack of multiple coatings.

Leica did use an in-house optical cement between elements ("Absorban") which acted as a "built-in UV filter" to block UV light and the faint blue-ish tint it can add to pictures. I do not know if Leica still uses that cement. And the glasses they chose sometimes had faint tints (the special "Noctilux Glass" for one of the 50mm f/1.0 elements was faintly yellowish, so all versions of that lens tend a bit warmer).

However it is the case that different designers have different aim-points for color, over time.

In his .pdf booklet Leica-M lenses - Their soul and secrets (2002), the late Erwin Puts has a little essay on Color Rendition. It includes a chart of the "color balance" of various lenses.

See page 18(19): http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/images/3/3a/Puts-2002-M-lenses.pdf

And that chart does show that the Mandler lenses 1975-1980 have a fairly consistent (but not perfectly matched) - green-cyan tendency compared to newer lenses. They are either lower in red transmission (right column 1/2/3) or higher in green transmission (center column - 5-6), or both. (Blue - left column - is "normalized" to zero for all lenses, to simplify things).

Whereas the "ideal neutral-color lens" would be 0/4/3, according to the folks who set such standards. And which includes Mandler's last design, the 50 Summicron-M 4/5 we still use, as well as the 135 APO-Telyt.

However Mandler's 180 Apo-Telyt for the R system falls into the same pattern as his M lenses, while the Mandler Nocti 50 f/1.0 is (relatively speaking) "screaming yellow" (very high in both red and green).

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

What I call "Mandler 1980 color" generally means G minus R >= 2, and preferably = 3. And preferably green >4..... so the 90mm ASMA (designed years after Dr. Mandler retired) would qualify.

Every so often I cook up my own little color-chart, by finding a "gray something" and shooting it with all my current lenses in identical light and exposure - just to see how reality compares to Puts' chart, and how well they match each other.

Here's a recent one , in which we can compare directly the Mandler 21 and 28 Elmarits, and the 35 Summicron ASPH, to the numbers above

The WB was not "for" any of the lenses, but just my Camera-Raw default of 5000°K/no tint.

It also includes (not on Puts' chart) a v.3 50 Summicron (Mandler 1969) which has just a hint of yellow-green, and the 90mm Elmarit-M (1991, but originally released for the R in 1981) also purportedly a Mandler design, which is pretty neutral.

Sadly, Puts' chart was never updated to include any lens after 2002 (50 Summilux ASPH, 28 Elmarit ASPH, 75 APO-Summicron, the Summarits, many others).

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, adan said:

As to the filter size for the 75mm, Laney's Leica Collectors Guide (1992) says "Early  E58; current  E60".

As to coatings, we should remember those are applied to cancel out air/glass reflections (destructive interference) and flare and increase contrast - not to balance the color of the light passing through the lens. Especially since the advent of multi-coating (1970s) with layers to "destroy" reflections across all different colors/wavelengths.

If we see a lens with a yellowish or blue-ish or purple-ish reflection from the coating, that doesn't mean the lens will pass different colors of light. It is just the top-most layer in the stack of multiple coatings.

Leica did use an in-house optical cement between elements ("Absorban") which acted as a "built-in UV filter" to block UV light and the faint blue-ish tint it can add to pictures. I do not know if Leica still uses that cement. And the glasses they chose sometimes had faint tints (the special "Noctilux Glass" for one of the 50mm f/1.0 elements was faintly yellowish, so all versions of that lens tend a bit warmer).

However it is the case that different designers have different aim-points for color, over time.

In his .pdf booklet Leica-M lenses - Their soul and secrets (2002), the late Erwin Puts has a little essay on Color Rendition. It includes a chart of the "color balance" of various lenses.

See page 18(19): http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/images/3/3a/Puts-2002-M-lenses.pdf

And that chart does show that the Mandler lenses 1975-1980 have a fairly consistent (but not perfectly matched) - green-cyan tendency compared to newer lenses. They are either lower in red transmission (right column 1/2/3) or higher in green transmission (center column - 5-6), or both. (Blue - left column - is "normalized" to zero for all lenses, to simplify things).

Whereas the "ideal neutral-color lens" would be 0/4/3, according to the folks who set such standards. And which includes Mandler's last design, the 50 Summicron-M 4/5 we still use, as well as the 135 APO-Telyt.

However Mandler's 180 Apo-Telyt for the R system falls into the same pattern as his M lenses, while the Mandler Nocti 50 f/1.0 is (relatively speaking) "screaming yellow" (very high in both red and green).

 

What I call "Mandler 1980 color" generally means G minus R >= 2, and preferably = 3. And preferably green >4..... so the 90mm ASMA (designed years after Dr. Mandler retired) would qualify.

Every so often I cook up my own little color-chart, by finding a "gray something" and shooting it with all my current lenses in identical light and exposure - just to see how reality compares to Puts' chart, and how well they match each other.

Here's a recent one , in which we can compare directly the Mandler 21 and 28 Elmarits, and the 35 Summicron ASPH, to the numbers above

The WB was not "for" any of the lenses, but just my Camera-Raw default of 5000°K/no tint.

 

It also includes (not on Puts' chart) a v.3 50 Summicron (Mandler 1969) which has just a hint of yellow-green, and the 90mm Elmarit-M (1991, but originally released for the R in 1981) also purportedly a Mandler design, which is pretty neutral.

Sadly, Puts' chart was never updated to include any lens after 2002 (50 Summilux ASPH, 28 Elmarit ASPH, 75 APO-Summicron, the Summarits, many others).

How interesting, thanks Andrew .

I may do the grey card test also then .

Why have some of these been highlighted in green ?  Is there a relevance of that to this discussion or for some other purpose?

Thanks again for the very informative post 

[adan]

47 minutes ago, grahamc said:

Why have some of these been highlighted in green ?

To key to the label at the top of the list - the green-highlighted ones are the Mandler/Canada Designs 1975-1980 on that list.

[Capuccino-Muffin]

On 5/7/2022 at 12:42 AM, lct said:

I have nothing against Canada of course but my M4 was made in Germany and was solid as a tank. I would not say the same about my Canada made M4-2 that i had to return in the eighties for a fragile shutter. As for lenses, some plastic have been used in Canada made lenses like Summicron 35/2 v4 and Summicron 50/2 v4. The German version of same lenses have lost those plastic parts AFAIK. Not to say that all lenses made in Canada were fragile, by far, but this can explain some difference in reputation.

I can’t agree although I’d love to. My Germany Summicron 35mm v4 definitely has this smooth plastic feeling aperture mechanism. I am 500% positive it’s plastic. 

[lct]

43 minutes ago, Capuccino-Muffin said:

I can’t agree although I’d love to. My Germany Summicron 35mm v4 definitely has this smooth plastic feeling aperture mechanism. I am 500% positive it’s plastic. 

I have not the same feeling on my German copies (34535** & 35539**). 
Interesting to read Marco Cavina on this (link). 

Free translation:
« (...) Moving on to the next 7-lens model type 11310 launched in 1979 and made in Canada, it is necessary to consider that the new corporate structure and the profound general economic crisis of the previous years had forced to cut redundant costs wherever possible, and packaging the new Summicron-M 35mm 1:2 with 7-lens scheme and 2 doublets (vs 6 lenses with 1 doublet of the previous 11309) an attempt was made to balance the additional costs of the optical unit by inserting synthetic elements into the mechanical frame, using new resins (...). As can be seen, the resin components do not have particularly stressed structural functions nor are they involved in elements subject to friction and wear such as helicoids, however there are various baskets and ring nuts inside the structure, elements whose material, during the course of the decades, it presented unforeseen problems of "aging" at the time when its use was decided and which decreed a structural fragility that exposed it to breakage. As soon as the manufacturer took note of this evolution of the materials, he reacted promptly, we must acknowledge it, eliminating the synthetic components from the barrel and contextually, taking advantage of the course of work also to recalculate the optical scheme (...) »

[Capuccino-Muffin]

I don’t doubt the fact that the plastic part got changed for metal, I just don’t believe it’s a Canada vs Germany thing. My german V4 really feels Like It has the plastic piece. I don’t believe it’s a clear cut to germany but rather that the piece got changed to meral somewhere down the line in Germany

Edited May 8, 2022 by Capuccino-Muffin

[lct]

6 hours ago, Capuccino-Muffin said:

I am 500% positive it’s plastic. 

3 hours ago, Capuccino-Muffin said:

I don’t doubt the fact that the plastic part got changed for metal,

I'm 500% positive you are right . Just kidding.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Ecar]

16 hours ago, Capuccino-Muffin said:

I don’t doubt the fact that the plastic part got changed for metal, I just don’t believe it’s a Canada vs Germany thing. My german V4 really feels Like It has the plastic piece. I don’t believe it’s a clear cut to germany but rather that the piece got changed to meral somewhere down the line in Germany

It wouldn't be the first occurrence of a lens assembled in Germany that used components originally made in Canada. I once owned a German Summilux 35/1.4 v2 with a Canadian box.