How does the M11 shine in low light with 18-MP-resolution?

[THEME]

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Couldn't find such samples in the Leica M11 images thread. Anyone? How the sensor performs at 18 megapixels in (extreme) low light? Much gained in comparison to 60 MP?

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[Photoworks]

In my tests the only difference is the resolution... I don't see any difference in Noise or DR in everyday use.

But the IQ is already good at 60mp that I have not run into problem..

[adan]

Still waiting for some decent examples (real-world stuff, not books or bottles on shelves) myself.

Leica says the in-camera downsampling is not significantly different from shooting 60 Mpixels and resampling "at home," and I have tried that with a couple of ISO 25000+ sample .DNGs and the smaller file reduces noise maybe one ISO step (e.g. 32000 18mp looks like 25600 60mp).

My main concern is how much either improves - IN COLOR, WITH RF VIEWING - over my plain-vanilla M10. Which is, again, maybe 1.5 stops (ISO 32000 M11 = ISO 10000 M10(v)) but a bit hard to be sure without the exact same lighting.

[hmzimelka]

In my quick and dirty tests, the 18 MP option is only useful for when I want small sized snapshots that are of no particular importance to my photographic work.

The only difference is the size, and I see no gain in dynamic range or reduction in noise levels that cannot be achieved by downsizing a 60MP file. What the 18MP setting doesn't do is maintain fine details as well as a 60MP file that's been appropriately downsized.  The 18 MP DNG files lack a pixel level sharpness that one has even at 60 MP.

It's an arguably useless feature to me unless file storage size is the determining factor for shooting with it. 

When I have a chance I'll see if there are any marginal gains at really high ISO values, and post the comparisons.

Edited April 1, 2022 by hmzimelka

[otto.f]

If I remember well Sean Reid found quite perceptible differences in noise behavior in the midrange between the three resolution settings. What I kept in mind however was that if it were disturbing at all and not just pixelpeeping, you could easily work around it with a setting. 

[hmzimelka]

2 hours ago, otto.f said:

If I remember well Sean Reid found quite perceptible differences in noise behavior in the midrange between the three resolution settings. What I kept in mind however was that if it were disturbing at all and not just pixelpeeping, you could easily work around it with a setting. 

Attached is a screenshot of a comparison between a ISO 6400, 1/8sec f/5.6 shot at Large, Medium and Small DNG sizes.

To my eyes, the 60 MP image downsized is better in noise levels and retained detail.
Unless I get into a situation where 80 MB per file is just too much, I don't feel the need to switch resolution.

I have these three images as 18.4 MP JPG files, and nine total DNG files available for download HERE

In the image below, the order is 18 MP, 36Mp, and 60MP.

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Edited April 1, 2022 by hmzimelka

[THEME]

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16 minutes ago, hmzimelka said:

Attached is a screenshot of a comparison between a ISO 6400, 1/8sec f/5.6 shot at Large, Medium and Small DNG sizes.

To my eyes, the 60 MP image downsized is better in noise levels and retained detail.
Unless I get into a situation where 80 MB per file is just too much, I don't feel the need to switch resolution.

I have these three images as 18.4 MP JPG files, and nine total DNG files available for download HERE

In the image below, the order is 18 MP, 36Mp, and 60MP.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Thanks much - doesn't look like lower res would make a difference for my style of shooting.

[otto.f]

1 hour ago, hmzimelka said:

the 60 MP image downsized is better in noise levels and retained detail.

And the 36Mp is the worst which was the remarkable outcome

[Guest]

(1) In the 60 MP file, where there is clear signal (black text) it comes through 'on top of the noise'.

(2) In the 18 MP file, the signal is interpolated with the surrounding noise, degrading effective resolution.

This would not be the case with a native 18 MP sensor as, analogous to the native 60 MP resolution, signal again would more likely dominate noise and not be contaminated as much. A smart downsizing algorithm in post processing from 60 MP to 18 MP would also preserve the signal more so than the noise.

Net/net: Unless your workflow has problems with file size, avoid the 2 lower resolutions on M11.

(1) 

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 (2) 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, mzbe said:

(1) In the 60 MP file, where there is clear signal (black text) it comes through 'on top of the noise'.

(2) In the 18 MP file, the signal is interpolated with the surrounding noise, degrading effective resolution.

This would not be the case with a native 18 MP sensor as, analogous to the native 60 MP resolution, signal again would more likely dominate noise and not be contaminated as much. A smart downsizing algorithm in post processing from 60 MP to 18 MP would also preserve the signal more so than the noise.

Net/net: Unless your workflow has problems with file size, avoid the 2 lower resolutions on M11.

(1) 

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 (2) 

Did you upsize 18MP or downsize 60MP?

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Did you upsize 18MP or downsize 60MP?

I zoomed into both images  - these are the screenshots that you see, similar size for comparison purposes. I am using the DNG files shared by hmzimelka above (thank you!).

Your point is well taken, here is a comparison of 18 MP out of camera vs. 18 MP out of Photoshop (using down-scaling). In both cases no noise reduction and no sharpening:

(2) 18 MP "out of camera":

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(3) 18 MP "out of Photoshop" (scaled down from 60 MP):

Friends do not let friends use M11 "pixel binning"!

[SrMi]

The following is 200% screen grab after resizing the 60MP to 18MP in Lightroom:

The difference is small, and likely not visible in print. Other benefits of higher MPs is better noise reduction and better malleability. 

I assume we will be noticing a similar difference between 24MP and 60MP M cameras.

 

 

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Edited April 1, 2022 by SrMi

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, SrMi said:

The following is 200% screen grab after resizing the 60MP to 18MP in Lightroom:

The difference is small, and likely not visible in print. Other benefits of higher MPs is better noise reduction and better malleability. 

I assume we will be noticing a similar difference between 24MP and 60MP M cameras.

 

 

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I would turn off noise reduction (which you left on) to get a more direct view of the actual performance of the camera - ? Leaving it turned on obfuscates to some degree the 18MP problem of smeared resolution (due to noise interpolation); eventually the bigger issues of 18MP would show up even with software help (leaving noise reduction turned on, applying AI, ...) e.g. with more significant post processing (e.g. push, recovery, sharpening, ...)?

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, mzbe said:

I would turn off noise reduction (which you left on) to get a more direct view of the actual performance of the camera - ? Leaving it turned on obfuscates to some degree the 18MP problem of smeared resolution (due to noise interpolation); eventually the bigger issues of 18MP would show up even with software help (leaving noise reduction turned on, applying AI, ...) e.g. with more significant post processing (e.g. push, recovery, sharpening, ...)?

Good point. I left Adobe's default settings, probably what most people would experience.

[Jeff S]

This comparison at 60MP and 36MP shows that noise performance is not improved by lowering M11 resolution and, without some future FW improvement, trails the latest M10 versions.

 

Jeff