I SOLD my Leica M11 …… & Why

[Chaemono]

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A 24 MP BSI sensor M is the culmination of perfection for a color digital M. M10-R and M11 are complementary for architecture and landscape photography. For street with the ability to crop a lot there are the M10M and the M11M. Find the missing camera in this picture.

[pgh]

1 hour ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

Perhaps this is where the binning come into its own. For those purposes for which 36 megapixels is sufficient and in accordance with one's targeted output format, why not take advantage; it's like a gear shift, offering you a medium-res sensor with, effectively, larger pixels.

Perhaps that's the reason the capability was built in...

Doesn't work that simply in my experience. I only rented the camera but it was enough to know I wouldn't want it. 

[DadDadDaddyo]

Leica have provided us with the means to employ binning to "shift gears" into having a 36-megapixel sensor when that matches our picture-taking situation and intended output better than using a 60-megapixel sensor at full resolution. 

I've never used flash, and have always reached as far as possible into available light and hand-holding exposures. Coming up, 8x10 inches was a typical enlargement for a shot I liked, very occasionally, 11x14. I got to be pretty confident in getting useful shots at 1/15th of a second, and wouldn't hesitate to go down to 1/8, braced, if needed. 

That said, I'm pretty sure plenty of my film output over 50+ years of using Leicas would reveal motion blur if examined with a loupe, or certainly if blown up to 24x36 inches. 

The fact is, we're diving deeper and deeper into our photos in terms of magnification when examining them. There's a difference between what you need for a print at x size and what you need for undetectable motion blur at 100%, and higher resolution sensors make it easier to detect smaller degrees of motion blur at 100%.

But that does not obviate the usefulness of high resolution sensors, when matched to the requirements of the assignment (or in my case, the self-assignment) combined with the intended output size and viewing distance .

What's evolutionary in the M11 is its max resolution of 60 megapixels. What's revolutionary, in terms of standard still cameras, is the availability of binning. 

I do astrophotography. I don't recommend it: it is a near-lethal form of madness.  But binning is an essential element of matching sensor resolution to target, taking into account the size of the projected image on the sensor. 

https://astrobackyard.com/binning-astrophotography/

It's amazing to have this capacity in a handheld still camera now. We can just use the resolution we need.

We haven't reached the limits of our sensors. But we may be nearing the limits of our physical ability to control those sensors in certain situations under certain circumstances, especially if we insist on consuming our images at 100% magnification. 

Y'know, I had friends back in college who were total gear heads in the Great Halcyon Days of the Stereo System. They'd pour over specifications, frequency response, harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, damping factor, rise time, on and on. 

And they'd select music to play on the basis of the frequencies the particular selection permitted them to hear reproduced by their system. 

They didn't listen to music. They listened to their stereos. 

Try a loupe on some old slides or negatives. You may be shocked...

Now, where's my Rubinstein recording of the Moonlight Sonata? Man he's going so fast it seems like he's almost missing the occasional note. A player piano would be cleaner, or, in modern terms, a MIDI file. "Dude should play slower, man."

But I like listening to old Arthur go for it, hell-bent for leather...

Edited June 16, 2023 by DadDadDaddyo

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, DadDadDaddyo said:

Perhaps this is where the binning come into its own. For those purposes for which 36 megapixels is sufficient and in accordance with one's targeted output format, why not take advantage; it's like a gear shift, offering you a medium-res sensor with, effectively, larger pixels.

Perhaps that's the reason the capability was built in...

 If you have motion blur, does the pixel binning actually resolve the problem?  It doesn’t make the sensels any bigger …

I bought (significantly) into the M system when the M9 was released because it wasn’t a computer with a sensor.  Unlike the Canon 5D 2, it reminded me of my Nikons of the late 70s, early 80s - direct control of what I needed; nothing I didn’t need (apart from the benighted, and short lived, Snapshot mode).

I can easily manage fast, smooth gear changes on my Ducati - I wouldn’t buy any automatic one, but I love driving my partner’s gearless Model 3 …

[DadDadDaddyo]

https://astronomy-imaging-camera.com/tutorials/everything-you-need-to-know-about-astrophotography-pixel-binning-the-fundamentals/

[colint544]

This thread has taken an interesting turn. I remember when the M8 came out. There was a lot of excitement that Leica had managed to make a convincing digital M. Then, when the M9 arrived, it seemed they'd really knocked it out of the park with the design, and with 18MP, which was a lot of megapixels at the time. I ended up settling on an M9 Monochrom in 2012, and I continue to use that today. I've made A2 prints from that camera. The rich and subtle tones, the detail in those prints is very beautiful. I've never felt limited in what I can do with the M9M.

Maybe 24MP really is the sweet spot for a digital M. There is something that goes slightly against the grain of the M philosophy when you have to hike up the ISO, and not go below 1/1000th of a second on the M11 to compensate for 60MP and lack of IBIS. IBIS has no downside that I can see, it's a brilliant invention. When I'm shooting in low light with, say, an M2 loaded with fast black and white film, there is something very satisfying about gently squeezing the shutter release at 1/15th of a second, or even 1/8th of a second, and being confident that the shot will not have any visible motion blur. It's part of the whole charm of an M camera.

In April this year, I was in the fortunate position to be able to sell a few things, and get a black M11. I've really missed having a colour digital M over the years. I haven't yet bonded with it. The viewfinder/rangefinder is absolutely amazing. Crystal clear, and far more accurate framing than any other M I've used. I appreciate the lighter weight. I thought it might make the camera feel a bit cheap, but it doesn't, it feels rock solid, really well made. I'm still at the point of being amazed at the resolution in the files. I'm not really big on cropping images, so I'm looking on the 60MP as something that's just nice to have, in case I ever want to make an enormous print. I think, the more I use the camera, the more it will grow on me. I just have to accept the workarounds for a camera with a huge MP count, and no IBIS.

I've no doubt Leica will find a way to get IBIS into the M12. That will be a game-changer, and take us back to being able to shoot down to very slow speeds in dim light, just like with a proper film M.

[Smudgerer]

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15 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Sorry, pro mist has been used long before any hike in digital pixel resolution so not a relevant comparison. In digital times it is used to make digital look filmic, but in film days it was used to soften the skin, bring down contrast and give the image a certain glow, also nobody used it in stills. Some of the most popular filters for stills were the softars.

 

Sure, you're right about Pro-mist in still camera usage, I was drawing from my many cinematography 35/S16 film years when ProMist filters were used for some close-up "beauty" scenes to take the curse off of harsh lighting perhaps or when going close wasn't too kind to the actor/s. Strangely enough now that digital cinema cameras are climbing the pixel tree and gaining more and more mp's some light Pro-mist / diffusion filters are coming into play again to some degree, so they can also be used to take the "edge" off of the digital imaging too. 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Smudgerer

[Chaemono]

Between IBIS and a thicker body or electronic shutter only vs. current M form factor and 24 MP BSI sensor, I prefer the latter. 

[Viv]

On 6/16/2023 at 3:01 PM, DadDadDaddyo said:

Old tech can be challenging!

I'm going to say something, hopefully briefly enough, about technique: technique that was once commonly in use, and technique that has either been forgotten or has fallen by the wayside and never been acquired in the first place by current users. 

Have you ever driven a Ford Model T? I have not, but I have ridden in one. It's not a car that would be easy for most folks to steal. The entire approach to driving is different, and by modern sensibilities, absurd. And yet, millions of people used to know how to drive them every day. The Model was good enough to launch the automotive age we know today. 

https://www.fordmodelt.net/m/how-to-drive.htm 

I learned to drive in compact, responsive European sedans with manual transmission. I still drive manual and love the craft of operating such a vehicle well. Most of my friends either no longer drive such a vehicle, or wouldn't have the first clue how to drive it well to begin with. And why should they? We have excellent multi-speed automatic transmissions today, transmissions that operate themselves with greater efficiency than most folks will (or could) ever achieve with a manual transmission. 

So now let's talk about photographers who are unhappy with the M11, specifically, those who complain that the M11 can't get an unblurred picture at any shutter speed below that which will reliably stop motion (in this case camera motion). 

It's perfectly possible to do so, and it's easy for anyone who came up using film cameras that lack Image Stabilization. It's a simple matter of technique and practice. Really.

So imagine someone saying, "I couldn't drive that horrible Volvo/Volkswagen/MG/Triumph,etc.! It's gears always grind!!"

Sorry to say, but for folks who've become accustomed to Image Stabilization, or who've never used a non-stabilized system, the transition to a body like the M11 is going to be painful indeed, for it will uncover, reveal, and mercilessly draw attention to, every single even-slightly-sloppy habit they've never had to overcome while shooting with stabilized systems. 

Unless they're willing to practice and grow, they're better off sticking with the many excellent stabilized systems that have been made just for them, systems that lower the threshold to superb photographic technical capability. 

The very same observations apply to focus (Manual vs. Auto) and exposure. Today's automated systems have attained amazing sophistication through the addition of various operating modes that can be applied to specific situations: Continuous Auto focus, Eye focus, the myriad Auto exposure modes). In fact, the expertise to switch intelligently between these modes is a signifier of acquired skill at operating these systems!

Those new skills have taken the place of the foundational skills involved in operating a still camera: holding, focus, exposure analysis and determination.

Look for videos of experienced photographers relating their first encounter with a view camera. Many are horrified! "How did the old timers ever make pictures with these???"

Ttuly, those old foundational skills are still attainable today, and hold up well even as folks who've acquired them move through this astonishing new world of automation and near-cybernetic support. 

Okay, enough. 

Think I'll grab my Toyo VX125 and my M10M and M11, jump into my six-speed Mazda MX-5, put the top down, and go for a nice photo drive!

You are absolutely right. Your comparison with manual gearbox cars is excellent.

I love the process of gear changing, with appropriate rev matching on the down shifts. Similarly, I love the fundamental skills of photography. My M11 give me sharp shots every time, under all light conditions.

It's all about the process and applying it correctly.

[Jeff S]

13 hours ago, colint544 said:

Then, when the M9 arrived, it seemed they'd really knocked it out of the park with the design, and with 18MP, which was a lot of megapixels at the time.

(snip)

[M11] The viewfinder/rangefinder is absolutely amazing. Crystal clear, and far more accurate framing than any other M I've used

Colin, I recall that forum response was very bumpy after the M9 launch…cracked sensors, red edge concerns, freezes, SD card compatibility issues, buffer issues, much angst over colors,  etc (and then eventually of course the corrosion issues).  The M9 nevertheless became a classic, but the noise at launch wasn’t quite from “knocking it out of the park”!  Dealing with the first digital full size M sensor took some fiddling.  We tend to forget the growing pains, and the initial naysayers, many who eventually became strong advocates, especially for the first Monochrom.

The M11 viewfinder/rangefinder is, AFAIK, unchanged from the M10 platform (in all its iterations).

Jeff

[Chaemono]

Shooting the M10M and the M11M side by side, it was obvious to me that the viewfinder of the M11 platform is clearer and allows for critical focusing with more confidence.

[Jeff S]

Any difference in specs or as cited by Leica?

Jeff

[Chaemono]

It is observed by a number of users and it becomes obvious when shooting the M10/M10M with the M11/M11M side by side. Fed Miranda, to whom a camera is like a third eye, also noticed it. https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1737771/31

[Jeff S]

Doesn’t answer my question.

Jeff

[Chaemono]

Your question implies, if it‘s not in the specs, it ain‘t so. And I‘m saying, it is so.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Chaemono

[Jeff S]

I’m not implying anything, nor refuting any claims or experiences.  Just asked a simple question to perhaps learn more about the issue. Still no answer… not just specs, but any comments from Leica, formal or informal, as they revealed in interviews regarding prior VF/RF improvements (M9).

Jeff

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Jeff S

[colint544]

16 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Colin, I recall that forum response was very bumpy after the M9 launch…cracked sensors, red edge concerns, freezes, SD card compatibility issues, buffer issues, much angst over colors,  etc (and then eventually of course the corrosion issues).  The M9 nevertheless became a classic, but the noise at launch wasn’t quite from “knocking it out of the park”!  Dealing with the first digital full size M sensor took some fiddling.  We tend to forget the growing pains, and the initial naysayers, many who eventually became strong advocates, especially for the first Monochrom.

The M11 viewfinder/rangefinder is, AFAIK, unchanged from the M10 platform (in all its iterations).

Jeff

Cheers, Jeff. Yes, there were a lot of teething troubles for the M9, I guess. But, on paper it looked great. And they got there in the end. The M11 viewfinder, I can only compare to my M9M, and the difference is remarkable. The M10 series, I've no experience of.

[Jeff S]

9 minutes ago, colint544 said:

Cheers, Jeff. Yes, there were a lot of teething troubles for the M9, I guess. But, on paper it looked great. And they got there in the end. The M11 viewfinder, I can only compare to my M9M, and the difference is remarkable. The M10 series, I've no experience of.

With the M10, they increased magnification to .73x, increased the diameter of the opening and improved eye relief.  Red Dot Forum listed a dozen or more improvements with the M11, but none related to the VF/RF.  That doesn’t mean that there weren’t any subtle refinements, as Stefan Daniel once explained regarding the M9 RF.  So far I haven’t heard anything official, but since I don’t own or have interest in buying the M11, I have only passing curiosity.  I’m enjoying the M10 Monochrom, and the M10-R for my infrequent color work.  Still have my MM, but it sits on the shelf awaiting sale at some point.  The M10 platform improvements make the M9 feel ancient, even before M11 changes.

Jeff

 

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

With the M10, they increased magnification to .73x, increased the diameter of the opening and improved eye relief.  Red Dot Forum listed a dozen or more improvements with the M11, but none related to the VF/RF.  That doesn’t mean that there weren’t any subtle refinements, as Stefan Daniel once explained regarding the M9 RF.  So far I haven’t heard anything official, but since I don’t own or have interest in buying the M11, I have only passing curiosity.  I’m enjoying the M10 Monochrom, and the M10-R for my infrequent color work.  Still have my MM, but it sits on the shelf awaiting sale at some point.  The M10 platform improvements make the M9 feel ancient, even before M11 changes.

Jeff

 

In one of the official Leica launch day videos where they were at Wetzlar discussing the M11, it was mentioned in passing that there were minor improvements to the rangefinder. They never elaborated or commented further that I know of.

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Hallo,

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[acalmplace]

I always find it fascinating (and great) that we have so very different deal-making and deal-breaking features within such a small community. Even some don't seem to rally around the presence of a viewfinder. I sure wouldn't want to be the one having to make decisions about what should stay and what should change! 

This is perhaps the main thing on which we all agree, that some things need to stay while others need to change. We just can't agree on which

In my case, and for my needs, the M11 has been fantastic so far. The deal-makers for me were usb-charging, much increased battery capacity, lower base ISO, and improved highlight recovery. These made me sell my M10r, but I can totally understand that these aspects are not important for others and lead to different decisions. Interesting nonetheless to hear so many different takes on 'the right M.'

Edited June 19, 2023 by acalmplace