M10R Images Sharpness

[GFONG]

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I have upgraded from M10P to M10R Black Paint this week. The M10R BP looks gorgeous. I shoot 160+ images yesterday. I have the following problem, please advise.

1. Image sharpness - I found that 40% of my images are not sharp. The settings of my M10R is similar to my M10P. The way of shooting is similar to using M10P. When using M10P, more than 90% of images are sharp. (Images viewed at 100% using Lightroom in my 27” 5K iMac)

2. Aperture Information - I understand the aperture information is the estimated value as the lens does not pass the aperture information to the camera. For example, when using M10P @ f5.6,  most of the time the information will show f4.8 / f5.6. The value is quite close  to the actual aperture value. When I use the M10R @ f5.6, it shows f2.8, f3.4, f4.8, f5.6 & f6.8. These images were taken within 5 mins under the same lighting condition (direct sunlight).

Please advise.

Thanks,

Galen

Edited March 19, 2022 by GFONG

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[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

What kind of lens to you use? What kind of pictures do you take? Are these dng or jpg data?

I have no problems with my APO-Summicron 35 mm plus Visoflex. However in any way I have some trubbles with my APO-Summicron 75 mm, not on long distances but on short in spite of Visoflex. I am shooting dngs only than processing with ADOBE-ACR/-Photoshop. My prints up to A3+ are excellent even the presentation on my monitor (4500 x 3000 px, ADOBE-rgb).

Regards Hans

[Adam Bonn]

I took a picture of the same thing with my m9 and m10 with a 50 cron set too 2.8

the m9 thought it was f3.4 and the m10 2.4

[GFONG]

1 hour ago, Hans-Dieter Gülicher said:

What kind of lens to you use? What kind of pictures do you take? Are these dng or jpg data?

I have no problems with my APO-Summicron 35 mm plus Visoflex. However in any way I have some trubbles with my APO-Summicron 75 mm, not on long distances but on short in spite of Visoflex. I am shooting dngs only than processing with ADOBE-ACR/-Photoshop. My prints up to A3+ are excellent even the presentation on my monitor (4500 x 3000 px, ADOBE-rgb).

Regards Hans

I am using 35mm Summciron (current version) to shoot Street Photography and the format is DNG only.

 

[GFONG]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

1. Use 4x shutter multiplication of the focal length and your images will all be sharp - unless your RF is out of alignment. I have the same setup as you (M10-R BP), my MINIMAL shutter speed is always 1/250s and my RF is spot on.
2. No way around Leica's "guesstimating" the f-stop on the M10-R. We have to live with it.

I am using 35mm and always shoot from hip. The aperture is set to f5.6 and the shutter speed is 1/500 or above. As I mentioned, I use the same settings on M10P and over 90% of the images are sharp.

Is it because the slightly handshake / camera shake will be amplified when using high resolution sensor?

[Jeff S]

How are you viewing the respective images to assess sharpness, and at what size (screen vs print, size/magnification)?

This topic has been discussed, and debated, at length in various ongoing M10R, M11 and other threads.  Higher resolution cameras demand good technique (steady hands). Increased magnification will reveal shake/blur that just wasn’t noticed when looking at lower resolution images at reduced sizes.  Some experience no difference with their 24MP vs 40 or 60MP M bodies.  Many, however, have had to adjust their shutter speeds upward, typically double or more.  Shooting ‘from the hip’ seems, not surprisingly, a technique that warrants increased attention.

Jeff

Edited March 19, 2022 by Jeff S

[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

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vor 31 Minuten schrieb GFONG:

I am using 35mm and always shoot from hip. The aperture is set to f5.6 and the shutter speed is 1/500 or above. As I mentioned, I use the same settings on M10P and over 90% of the images are sharp.

Is it because the slightly handshake / camera shake will be amplified when using high resolution sensor?

Try to increase the ISO up to 800 or more so you can get about f11 ore more. As to my experience this will not reduce the quality of yor pictures noticeably.

Hans

[GFONG]

36 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

How are you viewing the respective images to assess sharpness, and at what size (screen vs print, size/magnification)?

This topic has been discussed, and debated, at length in various ongoing M10R, M11 and other threads.  Higher resolution cameras demand good technique (steady hands). Increased magnification will reveal shake/blur that just wasn’t noticed when looking at lower resolution images at reduced sizes.  Some experience no difference with their 24MP vs 40 or 60MP M bodies.  Many, however, have had to adjust their shutter speeds upward, typically double or more.  Shooting ‘from the hip’ seems, not surprisingly, a technique that warrants increased attention.

Jeff

I view the images at 100% on my 27” 5K iMac (not full screen) using Lightroom. 
 

Agree with you”Increased magnification will reveal shake/blur that just wasn’t noticed when looking at lower resolution images at reduced sizes.”.

[GFONG]

21 minutes ago, Hans-Dieter Gülicher said:

Try to increase the ISO up to 800 or more so you can get about f11 ore more. As to my experience this will not reduce the quality of yor pictures noticeably.

Hans

I am using AutoISO and set the Maximum Auto iSO to 8000 and Maximum Exposure a time to 1/500.

[weinlamm]

Can you show some of your unsharp pictures? In best case with exif inside. 

[GFONG]

3 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Maximum exposure to 1/500? Do you mean miminum?

Yes. I mean the min shutter speed is 1/500. In the ISO Setup, it stated “Maximum Exposure Time”.

[otto.f]

18 hours ago, GFONG said:

I am using 35mm and always shoot from hip. The aperture is set to f5.6 and the shutter speed is 1/500 or above. As I mentioned, I use the same settings on M10P and over 90% of the images are sharp.

Is it because the slightly handshake / camera shake will be amplified when using high resolution sensor?

Yes. It's just a little learning curve coming from 24Mp or less.

 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by otto.f

[otto.f]

17 hours ago, GFONG said:

I am using AutoISO and set the Maximum Auto iSO to 8000 and Maximum Exposure a time to 1/500.

you mean you shoot with AutoIso + AutoExp? try AutoIso unlimited and exposure 3x focal length: 1/125.

Are you sure it is movement blur? Is the rangefinder adjusted correctly? You only give broad statistics, no analyses of separate shots with excluding variables, for instance shots with a tripod

Edited March 20, 2022 by otto.f

[GFONG]

56 minutes ago, otto.f said:

you mean you shoot with AutoIso + AutoExp? try AutoIso unlimited and exposure 3x focal length: 1/125.

Are you sure it is movement blur? Is the rangefinder adjusted correctly? You only give broad statistics, no analyses of separate shots with excluding variables, for instance shots with a tripod

Equipment - M10R + 35mm Summicron

Exposure - Aperture priority (f5.6) + AutoISO (Min shutter speed 1/500 & Max ISO 8000)

Focus - Zone focusing set at 3m (DOF - 2.13m to 5.09m)

Subject - Street Photography ( Moving subject). Sometimes I shoot when I am walking (That’s why set the min shutter speed to 1/500)

When using the above settings in M10P,  90% of the images are sharp.

When I shoot station subject using M10R, the images are sharp. That’s why I exclude the possibility of lens and camera calibration problem. (I may be wrong.)

[otto.f]

This is what you told us already

[ejg1890]

My be this was suggested and I missed it skimming through the replies. I would:

1. Focus through the viewfinder and take the picture at 5.6 and 1/250 (realize you are shooting 1/500 at times)

2. Focus through Liveview using focus peaking and magnification. Take the picture at 5.6 and 1/250.

Compare the images. If the live view picture is in focus while the other is not then the camera viewfinder mechanism is out of alignment. If both are out of focus then it could be the lens and I would run the same test above with a different lense.

[GFONG]

18 minutes ago, ejg1890 said:

My be this was suggested and I missed it skimming through the replies. I would:

1. Focus through the viewfinder and take the picture at 5.6 and 1/250 (realize you are shooting 1/500 at times)

2. Focus through Liveview using focus peaking and magnification. Take the picture at 5.6 and 1/250.

Compare the images. If the live view picture is in focus while the other is not then the camera viewfinder mechanism is out of alignment. If both are out of focus then it could be the lens and I would run the same test above with a different lense.

If shooting non moving subject use viewfinder to focus,  the image sharpness is ok regardless of which aperture and shutter speed.

[Alberti]

I have the following strange experience: 28mm/f5.6 at F8 at 1/1500 th sec, and 200 asa & still I see some unsharpness in some areas of some pictures. Just the lack of the 'gosh' factor. Of course the camera is much more sensitive for the slightest mis-focus, but at these givens it should be constantly sharp. Yes, I see the difference between focussing at 10m, 20m and 100m. Even at 28mm.

But. I am starting to guess that it are precisely those pictures that I have taken with the electronic preview on (composing; or taking a picture above my head). Also 90mm M-Elmar pictures lack the punch when the life view is used; with just OVF I have no problems. I am not someone to experiment to find out though.

This is an observation that a puzzled-guy-called-Steven also brought forward for both M10-R and M11, if I am correct.

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[MaticB]

7 hours ago, Alberti said:

I have the following strange experience: 28mm/f5.6 at F8 at 1/1500 th sec, and 200 asa & still I see some unsharpness in some areas of some pictures. Just the lack of the 'gosh' factor. Of course the camera is much more sensitive for the slightest mis-focus, but at these givens it should be constantly sharp. Yes, I see the difference between focussing at 10m, 20m and 100m. Even at 28mm.

But. I am starting to guess that it are precisely those pictures that I have taken with the electronic preview on (composing; or taking a picture above my head). Also 90mm M-Elmar pictures lack the punch when the life view is used; with just OVF I have no problems. I am not someone to experiment to find out though.

This is an observation that a puzzled-guy-called-Steven also brought forward for both M10-R and M11, if I am correct.

Relaying on electronic preview would not necessarily give the best result - sharp picture! Areas of highest contrast, indicated by focus peaking, do not necessarily means "in focus". This is  clearly explain in camera instructions:

Focus peaking is based on object contrast, i.e. differences between light and dark of the subject elements. As a result, high contrast subject elements could be marked, even if they are not completely in focus.

• Display accuracy decreases when a wide-angle lens is used with a small aperture (= high depth of field).

 

 

[Alberti]

Thanks MaticB, of course you are right. I forgot. I took several pictures that turned out wrong. By not doing the right assessment; or even, by having having too small an aperture.

So - I should just use live-view more discriminatingly. On the M240 I learned how and when to trust the live-view. I still have to go through that step. In the M8 I took a picture, looked, and readjusted. I made a lot of pictures but that worked well. That is probably a better workflow.

As image sharpness, the rules to go by with the super-pixel size sensors are harder now once more: even for a 28mm I can see where I focussed - on the 18MP sensor it was more forgiving. So I have to train more and strain my eyes a bit. Not write off lenses quickly.

-  I need to prepare better. Just like with my Monochrome, where I pay attention to the BW-compositional elements, I now have to pay more attention where I want the plane of focus; and with live-view, select the area better, not just an edge.

- And I noted that virtually - because I can zoom in more -  it is just as if the lens has a larger aperture, so I have to make a critical choice where to focus, & assess the impact of the choice in focal plane.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Alberti