Summaron 35 2.8 and Summicron 35 V1

[shinobi2012]

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Hello Community,

 

i have a Summaron 35 2.8 (pristine condition) and  thinking to try a Summicron 35  V1.

I can't find any comparison. I am shooting on film only, wet prints done by a friend,

and Summaron 35 2.8 is very special in black & white (for color I use V4/germany, also using Summilux Pre Asph v2 Germany for white open glow)

So I appreciate your insides how the Summicron would render compared to the Summaron.

I know, everybody needs to find out by her/himself, but at this price tag I would like to get a ruff idea..

Thanks

Edited March 17, 2022 by shinobi2012

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[a.noctilux]

My story of 35mm Summicron version 1 can teach me that to be very careful with old lenses.

1 - Many years ago, I had opportunity to buy cheap goggled Summicron 35mm (M3 type !).

The optical cell was (are as I still use it) clean but the filter thread was "shocked" so using filter was not easy.

Why it was so cheap.

 

2 - Very pleased with the typical output, I chased for M2 type same lens to find one about triple price of the M3 type.

But this one was not up to the M3's "same" lens, maybe it has some problems, so I traded it for another lens when I could.

 

3 - Many years later, I found another M2 type that is not as pretty as the second (traded many years ago) but almost as nice rendering

as the "first" M3 type that I always use.

 

Conclusion :

- buy one (or more) when we can then use the lens to keep it or let-it-go.

- comparing two or more lenses by another user is pointless as these old lenses may have had hard time at some points,

in their long life

- two "same" lenses can behave differently and price has nothing to do with that

 

I do have some 35mm lenses to choose from,

so if I had to choose only one this would be the Summilux 35 asph. the bottom/right one

as seen here

Edited March 17, 2022 by a.noctilux

[a.noctilux]

As side note,

the only way to know if the particular lens is "good for ..." is using a while, ( 😉 that is my only advice ...)

[shinobi2012]

vor einer Stunde schrieb a.noctilux:

As side note,

the only way to know if the particular lens is "good for ..." is using a while, ( 😉 that is my only advice ...)

agreed

 

[shinobi2012]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb a.noctilux:

My story of 35mm Summicron version 1 can teach me that to be very careful with old lenses.

1 - Many years ago, I had opportunity to buy cheap goggled Summicron 35mm (M3 type !).

The optical cell was (are as I still use it) clean but the filter thread was "shocked" so using filter was not easy.

Why it was so cheap.

 

2 - Very pleased with the typical output, I chased for M2 type same lens to find one about triple price of the M3 type.

But this one was not up to the M3's "same" lens, maybe it has some problems, so I traded it for another lens when I could.

 

3 - Many years later, I found another M2 type that is not as pretty as the second (traded many years ago) but almost as nice rendering

as the "first" M3 type that I always use.

 

Conclusion :

- buy one (or more) when we can then use the lens to keep it or let-it-go.

- comparing two or more lenses by another user is pointless as these old lenses may have had hard time at some points,

in their long life

- two "same" lenses can behave differently and price has nothing to do with that

 

I do have some 35mm lenses to choose from,

so if I had to choose only one this would be the Summilux 35 asph. the bottom/right one

as seen here

True what you say. Thats why I wrote "I would like to get a ruff idea.."

Summilux 35 pre Fle is the best of both worlds (pre / ASPH). BUT we don't want to choose one lens, aren't we? 

Summilux 35 Pre Asph is also a wonderful lens of its own, so is the Summaron.

And also Summicron 28 ASPH v1 is very nice lens, which could serve me well as one Camera one lens.

But life would be boring 🙂 

So we choose according to our feeling, like the painter his brush...

[ocean2059]

I have not used film for a long while so my comments below are based on my experience with digital M bodies of M9/M240/M10R.

I find that the most unique signature of Summicron V1 (8E) is its out of focus (OOF) rendering at F/2, for close to mid focus distance subjects. Specifically, the individual OOF highlight has a brighter outer ring which I don't find in Summaron 35/2.8, nor in Summicron 35 V4. The overall image contrast of the V1(8E) is lower than that of the V4, with respect to different f/stops, but sharpness and resolution is still pretty good even for my M10R. Stepping down to f/2.8, f/4, and f/5.6, I don't detect large difference between V1 (8E) and Summaron 35/2.8, generally speaking (my copy of Summaron may be a tiny bit more contrasty).  At open stop, the V1(8E) has some glow in outer edges of images but much less than that of Summilux 35 pre-ASPH (I have the V2 Canadian version); contrast is also higher than that of the Summilux 35 pre-ASPH but low than that of V4, as I mentioned earlier.  

Personally, I like the V1(8E) very much. I find the rendering of the lens very unique and images are very easy for post processing. I use it regularly on my M9 and M9 Monochrom. few years ago, I was in a similar situation - wanting to learn and finding out the difference among other 35mm lenses, and now I am keeping the V1(8E). 

[Erato]

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I'll vote and keep the V1.

FYR.

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[shinobi2012]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb ocean2059:

I have not used film for a long while so my comments below are based on my experience with digital M bodies of M9/M240/M10R.

I find that the most unique signature of Summicron V1 (8E) is its out of focus (OOF) rendering at F/2, for close to mid focus distance subjects. Specifically, the individual OOF highlight has a brighter outer ring which I don't find in Summaron 35/2.8, nor in Summicron 35 V4. The overall image contrast of the V1(8E) is lower than that of the V4, with respect to different f/stops, but sharpness and resolution is still pretty good even for my M10R. Stepping down to f/2.8, f/4, and f/5.6, I don't detect large difference between V1 (8E) and Summaron 35/2.8, generally speaking (my copy of Summaron may be a tiny bit more contrasty).  At open stop, the V1(8E) has some glow in outer edges of images but much less than that of Summilux 35 pre-ASPH (I have the V2 Canadian version); contrast is also higher than that of the Summilux 35 pre-ASPH but low than that of V4, as I mentioned earlier.  

Personally, I like the V1(8E) very much. I find the rendering of the lens very unique and images are very easy for post processing. I use it regularly on my M9 and M9 Monochrom. few years ago, I was in a similar situation - wanting to learn and finding out the difference among other 35mm lenses, and now I am keeping the V1(8E). 

Thanks, that is very helpful. I might get a M10 to compliment my M-A and M3. 

Interessting about Summilux 35 having less contrast than V1. My Summilux 35 late German version has just slightly less contrast than V4 late Germany. 

[shinobi2012]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Erato:

I'll vote and keep the V1.

FYR.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

V1 as the professional Artists pencil ? 😉 

[colint544]

I had, and used, a v1 eight elements for 14 years. Bought it for £400, sold it for £1650. I wish I hadn't sold it. They go for collector prices now. 

I found the lens to be very sharp, but not too contrasty. It could flare a bit in the sunlight, and the out of focus areas often seemed a bit busy. But it's a lens never to sell, a work of art from Leica.

I now have a 35 Summaron 2.8 (non goggled). It's also a lovely lens. Built like the v1 Summicron - precise, engineered, with the lovely infinity lock. Similar 1960's lower contrast, but very sharp results. I find the background 'bokeh' a touch smoother, more pleasant than the Summicron at full aperture.

These Summarons are now straying into collector prices territory. It's also a lens never to sell. I'm hanging onto mine. Lesson well learned.

[ocean2059]

3 hours ago, shinobi2012 said:

Thanks, that is very helpful. I might get a M10 to compliment my M-A and M3. 

Interessting about Summilux 35 having less contrast than V1. My Summilux 35 late German version has just slightly less contrast than V4 late Germany. 

My Summilux pre-ASPH (V2 Canada) at f/1.4 has low contrast and more glow than my Summicron V1 (8E) at f/2.0. I did read that the Summilux pre-ASPH (V2 Germany) has higher contrast than other earlier version of that lens.  I also read that the Light Len Lab's Summicron V1 replica has higher contrast than that of the original version. I don't have any first hand experience since I don't own a copy of the LLL replica.  

[shinobi2012]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb ocean2059:

My Summilux pre-ASPH (V2 Canada) at f/1.4 has low contrast and more glow than my Summicron V1 (8E) at f/2.0. I did read that the Summilux pre-ASPH (V2 Germany) has higher contrast than other earlier version of that lens.  I also read that the Light Len Lab's Summicron V1 replica has higher contrast than that of the original version. I don't have any first hand experience since I don't own a copy of the LLL replica.  

Yes, regarding the Summilux pre-ASPH, there are differences in coatings which changes the amount of glow in certain light situations.I had an easy copy, a titanium and a late black German version and all three behave differently wide open. I think there is a thread here in the forum about it.

[Erato]

10 hours ago, shinobi2012 said:

V1 as the professional Artists pencil ? 😉 

Naah, those photos were trying to point out the gray tonality grading scales is a quite similar concept against painting and drawing. 

All the subtle details and dynamic range abilities are relevant(strokes, light, shade, canvas/paper, even protection spray applied during the finishing process). Some advanced technics are even suggested using a paper wipe or paintbrushes to desaturate the density of the carbon powder for a better tonality transition.

In terms of black and white photography, most of the shooters are more than happy to keep better and more accurate details.
From my experience, the subtle difference is illustrated in the highlight and dim areas. In the meanwhile, the 8-Elements is more pleasant with fine details and an exquisite linear grading on M10M.

Perhaps, the image quality is not directly proportional to a similar design. A simplified dual Gauss design economized two elements, it keep the contour and similar capabilities but the subtle tonality and an extra stop.

Aforementioned, it would be an awesome lens if you are looking for a budgetary lens against 8-elements but please don't expect the same level of performance.

[Ecar]

I have both. Overall, I agree that the 8e is the *better* lens, although not by much, if only because it offers a very broad tonal range in B&W and goes to f/2 without compromising its stopped down performance, as is sometimes the case with other vintage lenses. My only gripe with the 8e has to be its oof rendering (aka bokeh), which is nothing to write home about - far from it - especially when shooting against a busy background. For street photography, where I'd usually stop down anyway, I'm often happier with a Summaron (either the f/2.8 or the f/3.5) because the images have more "native" contrast and require less post-processing to get the look I want. 

[Ecar]

Bokeh illustration: M10 + Summicron 35 v1 wide open

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[shinobi2012]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb Ecar:

I have both. Overall, I agree that the 8e is the *better* lens, although not by much, if only because it offers a very broad tonal range in B&W and goes to f/2 without compromising its stopped down performance, as is sometimes the case with other vintage lenses. My only gripe with the 8e has to be its oof rendering (aka bokeh), which is nothing to write home about - far from it - especially when shooting against a busy background. For street photography, where I'd usually stop down anyway, I'm often happier with a Summaron (either the f/2.8 or the f/3.5) because the images have more "native" contrast and require less post-processing to get the look I want. 

Thanks, very helpful. I have to say, the Summaron is a very good lens in almost any situation. For f2 and 1,4 I use the Summilux pre ASPH.So I guess, I am saving my money not getting a V1 😉 It will not improve anything what I have.

[shinobi2012]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb Ecar:

Bokeh illustration: M10 + Summicron 35 v1 wide open

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Thanks.Very special, indeed.

[shinobi2012]

Am 19.3.2022 um 17:21 schrieb colint544:

I had, and used, a v1 eight elements for 14 years. Bought it for £400, sold it for £1650. I wish I hadn't sold it. They go for collector prices now. 

I found the lens to be very sharp, but not too contrasty. It could flare a bit in the sunlight, and the out of focus areas often seemed a bit busy. But it's a lens never to sell, a work of art from Leica.

I now have a 35 Summaron 2.8 (non goggled). It's also a lovely lens. Built like the v1 Summicron - precise, engineered, with the lovely infinity lock. Similar 1960's lower contrast, but very sharp results. I find the background 'bokeh' a touch smoother, more pleasant than the Summicron at full aperture.

These Summarons are now straying into collector prices territory. It's also a lens never to sell. I'm hanging onto mine. Lesson well learned.

I agree. Prices for Summaron 2,8 went up here in Germany. I keep mine, perfect condition.

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Hallo,

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