Keeping my SL2, but I think I’m done with autofocus - M glass is my joint

[hdmesa]

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19 minutes ago, MrFriendly said:

As stated in my post #49, all the photos I've posted here were taken on my SL2-S, latest firmware, using 50mm Summilux-SL, wide open, and the camera set to iAF, Face/Body Detection, and AF Profile to Wildlife.

Even on my Canon R5, face detect didn't work so well on a side profile of a person. For the kind of shots you illustrated, these all should have been shot in Spot or Field AF modes (smallest field box) with the focus box positioned manually using the joystick. Looks like you like to shoot people moving horizontally across the frame in the same plane, so you don't even need servo AF. Just use the AF tied to the shutter and shoot.

[MrFriendly]

55 minutes ago, Reddy said:

No I mean autofocus metering method, multi-fields or spot metering, see manual from P.110, or you can simply use touch AF function on P.80

whatever iAF something detection and the profile are the conditions for the Camera should focus first but not the camera actually trying to focus. metering is another thing, tell the camera where actually to focus on.

I had the camera set to Multi-Field metering.

[Reddy]

32 minutes ago, MrFriendly said:

I had the camera set to Multi-Field metering.

okay I see, change the metering to spot / field metering and AF-S (single),  practice a bit and see if that helps.

[opera207]

AF of sl is semi-finished, if you can have the AF of Canon/Sony/Nicon on SL, you will be very happy, at least you can tap and track.

Also, the motor of SL apo lenses is disaster, noisy for continuous af on and video. Panasonic lenses have much better motor.

Finally, you  can adjust the dial angle of MF, I like 90 or 120 degree.

 

 

[Fedro]

57 minutes ago, opera207 said:

AF of sl is semi-finished, if you can have the AF of Canon/Sony/Nicon on SL, you will be very happy, at least you can tap and track.

Also, the motor of SL apo lenses is disaster, noisy for continuous af on and video. Panasonic lenses have much better motor.

Finally, you  can adjust the dial angle of MF, I like 90 or 120 degree.

 

 

I totally agree and it is one of the reasons that got me to sell eventually the SL2

The SL APO's great as they are optically (I particularly loved the 90) but, yes, the are quite noisy which is particularly annoying given how much they hunt in low light

It was great with the Zoom lenses, and I also loved the 50 LUX SL .. It was also really nice with (long) M lenses

I will wait to see what the SL3 brings as I liked the system otherwise.

 

 

[trickness]

4 hours ago, Fedro said:

I totally agree and it is one of the reasons that got me to sell eventually the SL2

The SL APO's great as they are optically (I particularly loved the 90) but, yes, the are quite noisy which is particularly annoying given how much they hunt in low light

It was great with the Zoom lenses, and I also loved the 50 LUX SL .. It was also really nice with (long) M lenses

I will wait to see what the SL3 brings as I liked the system otherwise.

 

 

Weird, I have the 35 and 75 SL lenses and they are both silent.

[bherman01545]

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Hi All;

 

Not sure what is meant by noisy? but I believe that there have been a few threads and also videos on you Tube about it. There are probably a few, possible of explanations. First, is the camera at the latest firmware? I know that many would dismiss this, but I've seen real strange problems fixed with a firmware update.

Next, I would turn off/disable Lens Pre-Focus. This sometimes can cause the lens to chatter or move in and out (AF motors almost continuously in some cases).

Also, is the issue reported when set to S-AF or C-AF?

-Brad

[opera207]

2 hours ago, bherman01545 said:

Hi All;

 

Not sure what is meant by noisy? but I believe that there have been a few threads and also videos on you Tube about it. There are probably a few, possible of explanations. First, is the camera at the latest firmware? I know that many would dismiss this, but I've seen real strange problems fixed with a firmware update.

Next, I would turn off/disable Lens Pre-Focus. This sometimes can cause the lens to chatter or move in and out (AF motors almost continuously in some cases).

Also, is the issue reported when set to S-AF or C-AF?

-Brad

 

 

Yes when turn off pre-focus, the noise is ok, but in video mode, it can't be turned off, the noise is loud. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by opera207

[MrFriendly]

20 hours ago, Reddy said:

okay I see, change the metering to spot / field metering and AF-S (single),  practice a bit and see if that helps.

Nope, I tried it, and it's still bad.  With AF-S it might actually be worse.

[Reddy]

20 minutes ago, MrFriendly said:

Nope, I tried it, and it's still bad.  With AF-S it might actually be worse.

Oh well I don't know what to say, perhaps change your whole system to SONY

[Planetwide]

Try this...

If using AF, go Menu, select AFs, then back to the menu, then select AF Mode Tracking. In the viewfinder the AF box will be centred. Place it on your desired focus point and half press the shutter button, it will track your point now, recompose and shoot. Nothing is faster than this method IMHO.

[MrFriendly]

On 2/22/2022 at 9:29 PM, Reddy said:

Oh well I don't know what to say, perhaps change your whole system to SONY

The sensor in the SL2-S is already made by Sony, is it not?  What about all the electronics in the camera?  Leica doesn't even make the shutter, and they certainly don't develop the software.  Heck, some of the SL lenses aren't even designed by Leica.  So how much of the SL2 is Leica?

I don't own a Sony camera, but I do recognize how much progress they have made in the last few years, and I would definitely consider getting a Sony if they introduced a more premium line of camera and lenses (I hate plastic).  Either that, or Leica could/should license the algorithms running on the a1 for their SL camera.

[BernardC]

18 minutes ago, MrFriendly said:

The sensor in the SL2-S is already made by Sony, is it not?  What about all the electronics in the camera?  Leica doesn't even make the shutter, and they certainly don't develop the software.  Heck, some of the SL lenses aren't even designed by Leica.  So how much of the SL2 is Leica?

There is a lot of speculation about Leica's sensors. The SL2-S has a BSI sensor, which doesn't tell us anything (Sony did not invent this technology, and they weren't the first to bring it to market). The SL2-S sensor does not have phase-detect AF elements, unlike any similar Sony sensors. The logical conclusion is that it comes from Tower Semiconductors, who also supposedly make the sensors for the SL, SL2, Q2, and M11 (and for several Panasonic and Arri cameras).

Leica doesn't make their own electronics. The original "Maestro" chip was made by Fujitsu (not to be confused with Fuji Film). I don't know who supplies the current version. I also don't know what the problem is. Look at any circuit board and you will see chips from several suppliers: Fujitsu, Motorola, Texas Instruments, etc. Leica does not own a billion Euro chip foundry, and Texas Instruments doesn't make cameras, so there isn't any conflict.

No one makes their own shutters, they come from suppliers. That's been the case for more than 50 years. Automakers don't make their own tyres either...

Leica probably write their own software. The current user interface first appeared in the S2 (introduced in 2008), which suggests that it's a long-term in-house project. That doesn't mean that they don't license various aspects of the software from companies that specialize in the embedded space, and get some code from suppliers. We know that Panasonic's DFD AF technology was first used in a Leica camera, so clearly there's cooperation.

Leica has sold third-party lenses under their own brand since the 1930s, non-stop.  I know that it bothers some people, but the same people complain that Leica doesn't release new lenses often enough. Clearly they can't have it both ways? I see no issue, as long as the lenses meet Leica's technical specifications.

To be clear, Leica also sells in-house designs under their own brand, I don't mean to imply that all Leica lenses are sub-contracted.

[bherman01545]

33 minutes ago, MrFriendly said:

The sensor in the SL2-S is already made by Sony, is it not?  What about all the electronics in the camera?  Leica doesn't even make the shutter, and they certainly don't develop the software.  Heck, some of the SL lenses aren't even designed by Leica.  So how much of the SL2 is Leica?

I don't own a Sony camera, but I do recognize how much progress they have made in the last few years, and I would definitely consider getting a Sony if they introduced a more premium line of camera and lenses (I hate plastic).  Either that, or Leica could/should license the algorithms running on the a1 for their SL camera.

I would guarantee that whatever Leica puts into their cameras (even if they do not manufacture every component) have an integral role in the design process.

The Maestro II processor, the micro lenses which allow for the great performance of many of the M lenses and many more technological aspects of their cameras are all designed by Leica.

Speaking of lenses, Leica is known for their lenses (always has  been) Peter Karbe and his team designed every aspect of the SL lenses, many of which will resolve up to a 100mp sensor. All QA is done by Leica.

Leica is not be a perfect camera. Sony, Canon, Nikon etc., all make good cameras.

For me, I buy Leica for its history, color science,  the quality of the lenses and the fact that to me, ‘less is more’ - less menus, less bells and whistles and less to get in the way to keep me from taking the types of photos that I like to take. To me, it feels the most like a real (and I’ve pretty much owned them all) Leica has also always treated me as a valued customer.

We’re all spoiled today with some great technology 

 

[Reddy]

3 hours ago, MrFriendly said:

The sensor in the SL2-S is already made by Sony, is it not?  What about all the electronics in the camera?  Leica doesn't even make the shutter, and they certainly don't develop the software.  Heck, some of the SL lenses aren't even designed by Leica.  So how much of the SL2 is Leica?

I don't own a Sony camera, but I do recognize how much progress they have made in the last few years, and I would definitely consider getting a Sony if they introduced a more premium line of camera and lenses (I hate plastic).  Either that, or Leica could/should license the algorithms running on the a1 for their SL camera.

I'm just being sarcasm if you find slow AF then I understand but AF is actually very mature, therefore when you can't get it focus this is definitely problem of how you use it.

I agree same Sony sensor but the program is  different and which Leica SL lens is not designed by Leica? Do you mean not made by Leica?

I got the AF APO 50mm not long ago as my first AF lens but I figured it out in a few days, just try and error and find your way in.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Reddy

[beewee]

8 hours ago, MrFriendly said:

The sensor in the SL2-S is already made by Sony, is it not?  What about all the electronics in the camera?  Leica doesn't even make the shutter, and they certainly don't develop the software.  Heck, some of the SL lenses aren't even designed by Leica.  So how much of the SL2 is Leica?

I don't own a Sony camera, but I do recognize how much progress they have made in the last few years, and I would definitely consider getting a Sony if they introduced a more premium line of camera and lenses (I hate plastic).  Either that, or Leica could/should license the algorithms running on the a1 for their SL camera.

This topic feels like beating a dead horse. Apple don’t make their iPhones. Apple doesn’t make the imaging sensor on the phone. Apple doesn’t make the MEMS sensors on the phones for IBIS. By your logic, how much of the iPhone is Apple?

The camera is more than the sum of its parts. Engineering and design is about striking a balance of trade offs to arrive at a set of solutions that the end user wants and is willing to pay for. I’m sure if Leica really wanted, they can license sensor IP and drain their working capital on designing their own custom sensor in house and it’ll be way more expensive, take way longer to make and be completely obsolete by the time it comes out. Is that what a Leica user wants?

Sigma have tried and failed with Foveon and they’re still trying but there are no current cameras with Foveon sensors. And they’ll keep failing until they stop. Even if Sigma succeeds in the next generation Foveon sensor, it’ll still be a “60MP” sensor with a 20MP spatial resolution and if hypothetically it can take full advantages of a stacked colour pixel array, it’ll still be no better than a 30-40 MP bayer sensor with more noise on certain colour channels which are lower down in the colour filter stack.

We live in a world where it’s more economical and at the end of the day, offers superior outcomes, when system integrators such as Leica leverage the best expertise in each respective field whether it’s sensor design, metallurgy, glass making, component manufacturing, to the best in their respective fields and focus on Leica’s core strengths such as colour science, optics, user interface, user experience, etc.

[aksclix]

31 minutes ago, beewee said:

Apple don’t make their iPhones. Apple doesn’t make the imaging sensor on the phone. Apple doesn’t make the MEMS sensors on the phones for IBIS. By your logic, how much of the iPhone is Apple?

iPhone is their original concept and iOS is the heart.. doesn’t matter who makes the parts that make it whole 😌

haven’t been following the thread but just thought I’d reply to just that 😬

[idusidusi]

On 2/13/2022 at 9:21 PM, trickness said:

Looking at my SL work over the past couple of years, I have a handful of shots with my SL glass, and a ton (like 85%) with M glass. It’s not because of the weight, and certainly it isn’t because of the image quality - the SL glass is insanely gorgeous. I took my 35 SL down to Chinatown for celebrations yesterday and I felt so disconnected - no matter what settings, whether face detection, or using back button focusing, I just felt like autofocus  always was getting in my way, taking too long to decide what to focus on, or not doing exactly what I wanted it to. I switched to manual focusing but I don’t find it enjoyable because of the focus throw, takes too long to dial in. I could zone focus, but then I think why am I using this big lens when I could have M glass with me?

I’m not bagging on the SL autofocus in particular, I am just feeling an aversion to autofocus in general. I went back and forth between SL and M glass at the same focal lengths this morning and every time I went to to M glass it was like “ahhhhhhh….” Even if the focus wasn’t spot on, in fact the ability to control what was in and out of focus was a huge strength of the M glass. The SL shots, yep, nailed focus every time, but I felt less in control creatively. I’m struggling to envision a usage scenario where I would ever prefer or need autofocus - I don’t shoot sports or any fast movement, and I hate handing over control to a computer. Does anyone else have similar feelings or experiences, and if so, what did you end up doing? 

The SL2 is such a  beast with M glass, my 75 Nocti and 50 1.4 Lux M shots are just gorgeous wide open, and stopped down its an incredible street camera. I fear I’d regret selling the beautiful SL glass, but 9 times out of 10 I grab the M glass. 

 

 

You are awakening one of my annoyances with my Sony A1 camera. Autofocus sometimes but not always just gets in the way and annoys me long enough to miss the shot I had envisaged. I can well understand M-glass on your SL. This is what I used on an SL a few years ago, and when I look at the images taken and printed in a photo book, they are some of the best images I have had printed. I look forward to matching my 35/90mm Summicron with the M11 when mine arrives. I also ordered a Novoflex adapter for the A1.

[MrFriendly]

On 2/25/2022 at 2:50 PM, BernardC said:

There is a lot of speculation about Leica's sensors. The SL2-S has a BSI sensor, which doesn't tell us anything (Sony did not invent this technology, and they weren't the first to bring it to market). The SL2-S sensor does not have phase-detect AF elements, unlike any similar Sony sensors. The logical conclusion is that it comes from Tower Semiconductors, who also supposedly make the sensors for the SL, SL2, Q2, and M11 (and for several Panasonic and Arri cameras).

Leica doesn't make their own electronics. The original "Maestro" chip was made by Fujitsu (not to be confused with Fuji Film). I don't know who supplies the current version. I also don't know what the problem is. Look at any circuit board and you will see chips from several suppliers: Fujitsu, Motorola, Texas Instruments, etc. Leica does not own a billion Euro chip foundry, and Texas Instruments doesn't make cameras, so there isn't any conflict.

No one makes their own shutters, they come from suppliers. That's been the case for more than 50 years. Automakers don't make their own tyres either...

Leica probably write their own software. The current user interface first appeared in the S2 (introduced in 2008), which suggests that it's a long-term in-house project. That doesn't mean that they don't license various aspects of the software from companies that specialize in the embedded space, and get some code from suppliers. We know that Panasonic's DFD AF technology was first used in a Leica camera, so clearly there's cooperation.

Leica has sold third-party lenses under their own brand since the 1930s, non-stop.  I know that it bothers some people, but the same people complain that Leica doesn't release new lenses often enough. Clearly they can't have it both ways? I see no issue, as long as the lenses meet Leica's technical specifications.

To be clear, Leica also sells in-house designs under their own brand, I don't mean to imply that all Leica lenses are sub-contracted.

The point I was trying to make in #72 is that, at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if I choose Leica, Sony, Nikon or whatever, simply because they are using and sharing the same technologies, and i think you expanded on my point very eloquently.  That's not to say that there aren't important differences, but most of the cameras produced today by different manufacturers share more in common than anything else (at least to my eyes).

So why do I choose Leica? It mainly comes down to the physical built quality of the cameras and the lenses, that's the main reason.  The lenses and the M system would another reason, but that's a different discussion i think.

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[IkarusJohn]

5 hours ago, MrFriendly said:

The point I was trying to make in #72 is that, at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if I choose Leica, Sony, Nikon or whatever, simply because they are using and sharing the same technologies, and i think you expanded on my point very eloquently.  That's not to say that there aren't important differences, but most of the cameras produced today by different manufacturers share more in common than anything else (at least to my eyes).

So why do I choose Leica? It mainly comes down to the physical built quality of the cameras and the lenses, that's the main reason.  The lenses and the M system would another reason, but that's a different discussion i think.

I think that is slightly the wrong way round - if you strip the parts out of any top Leica, Sony, Nikon, Fuji or Hasselblad camera, many of the parts will be common, and most (with the possible except of Sony) will be made by the same suppliers, or similar.  Past a certain point, it isn’t the technologies that count.

What makes Leica different is the way they put these technologies to use, and how they have developed the user interface.  It’s not just build quality, but how those common technologies are utilised.