28mm elmarit v. 4 vs 28mm asph

[Fotomatt]

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I’m new to the forum and am curious if anyone has feedback about the differences in image quality/character between the 28mm elmarit v 4 and the asph version. I currently own the v4 and am wondering what the asph has to offer. I’m using it on the M 240. I don’t NEED to spend the $$ but am curious if others have compared. Thanks

[Mute-on]

 

[adan]

I have never gotten along with the ASPH version of the 28 Elmarit, regarding the images.

They always strike me as "nervous" - especially for "people pictures" - and I think I can now show why.

Here are Leica's own MTF graphs for both lenses (v.4 on the the left, ASPH (current updated version) on the right - click to see a bit larger)

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Key features are the red dotted/dashed lines - - - - - - - - - - -  charting tangential MTF. I.E. for lines of resolution that run in concentric circles around the center of the picture.

Those diverge quite a lot from the sagittal lines of resolution (i.e. those running out from the center towards the edges and corners). Creating more of a "snakepit" of widely-weaving lines. The tangential MTF already starts diverging (and dropping) within just a couple of mm out from the image center - at all apertures!

Additionally, despite the ASPH having been supposedly updated for better corner performance in the past decade, the tangential lines still have very poor MTF in the corners, diving to belowe 20% MTF, and never getting above 22% or so - again, at any aperture. That signifies increased "radial streaking" of fine details as one gets closer to the corners.

It is that asymmetry in the MTF that represents the "nervousness" I see in the ASPH images - details are fuzzier in one direction than the other.

The v.4 charts are better "sorted," with smoother behavior center to corner - the dashed and dotted lines move more in sync. Athough the peak MTF is a tiny bit lower in the exact center, stopped down - and counting only the sagittal lines. The lowest MTF never drops below 35-40%

However, the ASPH is clearly smaller and lighter. It runs a bit "pinker" in color rendering - the v.4 is a bit yellower/browner. The bokeh (as much as it exists with a 28mm f/2.8) is not signficantly different from the v.4. The ASPH is available new, while any v.4 will be over 20 years old. And the ASPH is still a pretty good deal new, as M lenses go.

But personally, I jumped all over a 6-bit-coded Leica-CLA'd 28mm v.4 last fall, when one turned up at Leica Store Miami. And it has lived up to its tech-specs beautifully.

So if you do decide to get rid of yours......

Edited February 4, 2022 by adan

[Stein K S]

Hi

 

I own both. And I fully buy in on Adans ¨analysis¨ and also personal preferences. I started up with he asph, but always felt that ¨nervousness¨ as well (not as ¨nervous¨ as the Elmarit asph which I sold... but still). So getting a nice copy of the v4 really ¨landed¨ the 28 quest for me... Very very happy about its drawing. I still keep the asph though... ¨never sell a Leica lens¨ 😉 

 

So I guess bottom line is: keep the v4 and do not spend the money on the asph...

Edited February 4, 2022 by Stein K S

[Stein K S]

Sorry... I was somehow totally predisposed concerning you asking about the Cron asph and not the Elmarit asph. Feel really stupid now! But my comments in themself might still be somewhat relevant... 😉

Edited February 4, 2022 by Stein K S

[Fotomatt]

Adan— thank you for the very detailed response, it solves the “grass is greener” dilemma soundly! ✅

Fotomatt

[Guest]

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This is LUF in a nutshell. @adan analysing MFT charts and tint from lenses (pink vs brown) and explaining why “this v4 Mandler lens” is more smooth than anything newer.

While both magnum and natgeo photogs are shooting the 28mm Elmarit Asph like no tomorrow. They will probably stop once reading LUF 😉

Peter and David Turnley these days shoot all their daily images on the 35 Summilux FLE and imagine, although bokeh is not as smooth and color tint more pink than Mandler lenses, they still make world class images. And several LUF members said this was the worst lens ever. Get over yourself!!!! 

Let’s focus on that. And yes @adan came before Turnley in one or even several photo comp. But hopefully due to the image and not lens rendering - if not any one could and would buy this “perfect lens and camera” bloody thing.

And one last thing, I know @adan is very knowlable about lenses and I’m sure as a pro he has many amazing images to show. But all images on LUF “about rendering of lenses” not only boring and stale - but just bad photogragphy. I hope the photography of papers get better. 

For all photogs, go find your inner voice and express that. Not v4 vs Asph 😅

Edited February 4, 2022 by mcpallesen

[Capuccino-Muffin]

1 hour ago, mcpallesen said:

This is LUF in a nutshell. @adan analysing MFT charts and tint from lenses (pink vs brown) and explaining why “this v4 Mandler lens” is more smooth than anything newer.

While both magnum and natgeo photogs are shooting the 28mm Elmarit Asph like no tomorrow. They will probably stop once reading LUF 😉

Peter and David Turnley these days shoot all their daily images on the 35 Summilux FLE and imagine, although bokeh is not as smooth and color tint more pink than Mandler lenses, they still make world class images. And several LUF members said this was the worst lens ever. Get over yourself!!!! 

Let’s focus on that. And yes @adan came before Turnley in one or even several photo comp. But hopefully due to the image and not lens rendering - if not any one could and would buy this “perfect lens and camera” bloody thing.

And one last thing, I know @adan is very knowlable about lenses and I’m sure as a pro he has many amazing images to show. But all images on LUF “about rendering of lenses” not only boring and stale - but just bad photogragphy. I hope the photography of papers get better. 

For all photogs, go find your inner voice and express that. Not v4 vs Asph 😅

Yes, a lot of measurebating and a basically meaningless hogwash in the end. But hey, I’ve also seen A LOT of really bland and boring images from the Turnleys, and magnum. No, they are not magical.

[Guest]

I own the 28mm elmarit version 4  and its my favourite and most used lens out of 7 [ 3 leica] .

[pippy]

20 hours ago, Fotomatt said:

I’m new to the forum......I currently own the v4 and am wondering what the asph has to offer...

Hi and welcome to the forum. You really need to try one out for yourself. Seriously.

Either that or be content with what you already own and truly believe it to be the best 28 Leica has ever offered because the alternative is to accept that after the v4 they decided to make their 28s worse than their older designs.

Best of luck with all that.

Philip.

[349A]

Good points Mcpallesen, its always about the person behind the camera in the end. To make an analogy about the lens rendering- if you listened to your favorite story and it was narrated by Chris Rock or Robin Leach, which version would be more entertaining? Same story, same outcome, same words. I know the 28 Asph and 35 FLE are capable of telling the story but in a way I really don’t care for. I own a 28 V4 and a 35 asph pre-fle myself because they convey beauty and emotion if I get it right.

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, pippy said:

Hi and welcome to the forum. You really need to try one out for yourself. Seriously.

Either that or be content with what you already own and truly believe it to be the best 28 Leica has ever offered because the alternative is to accept that after the v4 they decided to make their 28s worse than their older designs.

Best of luck with all that.

Philip.

Best at what though? 

[adan]

46 minutes ago, pippy said:

Either that or be content with what you already own and truly believe it to be the best 28 Leica has ever offered because the alternative is to accept that after the v4 they decided to make their 28s worse than their older designs.

Not worse - just different.

The design brief for the 28mm Elmarit ASPH was to shrink it to the size of a 35mm Summicron (E39 filter size). That was a worthwhile goal, but involved different compromises than the previous E48/E49/E46 28mm Elmarits. Given 2005-6 technology.

All M lens design is choosing between compromises (or one ends up with lenses the size of the SL line).

I happen to prefer the compromises made in the v.4 vs. the ASPH. So I chose it, just as I choose my preferred words and language when writing the journalism that accompanies my pictures.

2 hours ago, mcpallesen said:

This is LUF in a nutshell. @adan analysing MFT charts and tint from lenses (pink vs brown) and explaining why “this v4 Mandler lens” is more smooth than anything newer.

While both magnum and natgeo photogs are shooting the 28mm Elmarit Asph like no tomorrow.

I don't disagree (much). I myself have been told over and over again that this is a "gear forum" - and I wish it devoted a sub-forum or two (besides the photo galleries) to "Perception & Expression" with photography, and not just the mechanics. (Although I can virtually guarantee that within a page or two it would devolve into "depth of field and how to calculate it," rather than "why does DoF matter - if at all - and how and when to worry about it?"

But a gentleman asked a question that I happened to have some information about, so I provided it (with supporting evidence). You could ask the forum owner/admin, Andreas, if he wants us to just "shut down" such questions and answers.

I hope that photojournalism is considered as high an Art as any other - the amount of my "news and documentary" photos that sell at the gallery, compared to landscapes and such, tends to bear that out. (An instructor in college told me "photojournalism is the lowest form of photography" - I've devoted my life in part to proving him an idiot. ).

But artists do have preferences in the tools they choose (whether they discuss them as much as photographers) - big brushes, small brushes, palette knives, airbrush, spray cans. Or not even painting at all (lithographs, engravings, silk screens).

There are some darn nice "documentary sports/cultural moment images" of boxing by painter and lithographer George Bellows from about 90 years ago - and I would imagine he made some very specific creative choices about "gear and equipment" to pursue those: https://www.moma.org/collection/works/71059

I've studied the work of photojournalists from Magnum and Nat. Geo. and LIFE and LOOK and Paris Match, and Stern and GEO for 50 years: the Turnley twins, Stuart Franklin, Alex Webb, David Allen Harvey, Paul Fusco, Annie Leibowitz, Mary Ellen Mark, Jill Freedman, Susan Meiselas....too many to list.

But many of my books of their work predate 2006 - so it is obvious that they also shot the 28 Elmarits v.1/2/3/4 "like there was no tomorrow" - when those were what was available. We're lucky to have the same choices they had, as well as newer choices.

[MesaArchive]

3 hours ago, mcpallesen said:

For all photogs, go find your inner voice and express that. Not v4 vs Asph 😅

Talk about a boring and stale point....

Some of us enjoy learning about the granular nooks and crannies of our tools so we can more efficiently exploit them to our artistic ends. adan's post takes esoteric charts and curves and breaks it down in plain-spoken language that directly translates to the end result. I wish more posts here did the same.

[pippy]

10 hours ago, steve 1959 said:

Best at what though? 

Exactly, Steve. The important sentence in the post you quoted is the second one; not the part Andy and yourself quoted.

Philip.

Edited February 5, 2022 by pippy

[pippy]

9 hours ago, adan said:

Not worse - just different...

Same answer as the previous post apart from the swapping-around of the names.

Philip.

Edited February 5, 2022 by pippy

[adan]

17 hours ago, pippy said:

Hi and welcome to the forum. You really need to try one out for yourself. Seriously......

Best of luck with all that.

Philip.

OK - I've quoted the rest of that post.

"Best of luck...." is OK.

But in a large part of the world it is not a trivial exercise to "try one out for oneself" regarding Leica lenses.

At least not without spewing a lot of car, truck or aircraft CO2 into the atmosphere, shipping it (or oneself) hither and yon - and at someone's expense.

Sounds a bit like "Let them eat cake" - and we recall how that ended up!

I happen to be lucky - my medium-sized city still has one shop that gets in used Leica gear regularly. So over the course of 15-20 years I've managed to "try out" most of the M lenses. But I think the nearest store carrying significant Leica gear otherwise (new or used) is 1000+ kms away.

[MesaArchive]

4 hours ago, adan said:

I happen to be lucky - my medium-sized city still has one shop that gets in used Leica gear regularly.

I know Victory Camera in Boulder gets used stuff, are you speaking of a shop in Denver proper?

 

Signed,

A curious Colorado Springsian.

[adan]

3 hours ago, MesaArchive said:

I know Victory Camera in Boulder gets used stuff,

Mostly R and LTM, very little "modern" M.

I guess my assumption here (in context) is that someone wanting to "try out" a specific current or recent M lens will not want to do so via "archaeological digs" through small used shops for 5-10 years until they stumble across one.

They will need to be within a few miles of a Leica dealer with substantial stock on the shelves - or mail-order one from such a store, with "buyers remorse" return privileges in case they don't actually prefer it.

Leica USA used to run "Leica Days" where the regional rep would show up at a retailer for a day or two with a full set of lenses and cameras - to "try out." Hasn't been one of those in Colorado for nearly a decade, though. 😰

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Hallo,

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[ymc226]

On 2/3/2022 at 9:33 PM, adan said:

I have never gotten along with the ASPH version of the 28 Elmarit, regarding the images.

They always strike me as "nervous" - especially for "people pictures" - and I think I can now show why.

Those diverge quite a lot from the sagittal lines of resolution (i.e. those running out from the center towards the edges and corners). Creating more of a "snakepit" of widely-weaving lines. The tangential MTF already starts diverging (and dropping) within just a couple of mm out from the image center - at all apertures!

Additionally, despite the ASPH having been supposedly updated for better corner performance in the past decade, the tangential lines still have very poor MTF in the corners, diving to belowe 20% MTF, and never getting above 22% or so - again, at any aperture. That signifies increased "radial streaking" of fine details as one gets closer to the corners.

It is that asymmetry in the MTF that represents the "nervousness" I see in the ASPH images - details are fuzzier in one direction than the other.

The v.4 charts are better "sorted," with smoother behavior center to corner - the dashed and dotted lines move more in sync. Athough the peak MTF is a tiny bit lower in the exact center, stopped down - and counting only the sagittal lines. The lowest MTF never drops below 35-40%

However, the ASPH is clearly smaller and lighter. It runs a bit "pinker" in color rendering - the v.4 is a bit yellower/browner. The bokeh (as much as it exists with a 28mm f/2.8) is not signficantly different from the v.4. The ASPH is available new, while any v.4 will be over 20 years old. And the ASPH is still a pretty good deal new, as M lenses go.

But personally, I jumped all over a 6-bit-coded Leica-CLA'd 28mm v.4 last fall, when one turned up at Leica Store Miami. And it has lived up to its tech-specs beautifully.

So if you do decide to get rid of yours......

You convinced me to try the version 4 though I believed I was satisfied with my ASPH given it's small, compact form factor.  I shouldn't read any more posts of yours😀