Hello Leica friends. Please help me get started in your world!

[dmarkii]

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Hi all. Not really a "problem" in the real world, but for me I'm struggling to figure out where to get started in my Leica journey. I'm an hobbyist photographer and I have primarily shot wildlife/birds using Nikon DSLRs and more recently mirrorless. We're talking very long lenses, heavy gear. This hobby has become even more dear to me as it has been a reason throughout the pandemic and some tough situations at home to get outside, be in the world, and look at and listen to the world in a way that is more deliberate. It is also an excuse for me to endless research, acquire, trade, sell, and fiddle with gear. And I love gear.

 

For some reason unexplainable I fell down a YouTube hole last month that was all about street photography, and of course that led me to Leica. I work in NYC, commuting in every day, and I realized that similarly to the way that photography has opened up my eyes to the critters around me when I'm in the suburbs and woods, it might open up my eyes in a new way to the city that is one of the greatest for photography in the world.

 

So... I bought a Q2 Monochrom. Kind of a nutty first dip, but I figured hey if I'm going to look at the city around me, I'd like to distill it down to something pure, geometrical, light and shadow. So what the heck. Let's give it a try. 

 

It's kind of amazing what happened then, in just a few days. I carried the Q2M with me everywhere I went. What a delight compared to my brutally heavy birding rig. What a delight to take photos on a real camera when I'm out and about rather than my (admittedly impressive) iPhone 13 Pro Max. But more importantly, I started to slow down and look around at places I went every day on my commute to and from work. After work I happily missed my train home. And the next one. I staked out intersections as the night grew dark and waited. Waited for the right light, the right crowd, the right moment. 

 

When I arrived back in the 'burbs', I walked around that train station. Around my neighborhood. I looked at things I never noticed before. I stood in places longer than I ever had. Figuring out how to capture the light. Waiting for the right person to be walking past just the right spot. So much joy out of a spot that was just a connection between home and work. I saw things I've never even looked at like a pedestrian tunnel under the train tracks. A graveyard just beyond the station I've never even looked at. A pedestrian bridge over a highway with headlights zooming by. 

 

Unfortunately, or fortunately, and perhaps what Leica was hoping for, all this did was give me a taste for a true rangefinder and the jewel lenses of the M series. The Q2M is amazing, no doubt. But it still feels like a digicam to me. I haven't given up my D500/D850 for birds because I so much prefer looking directly at the real world. I stare at digital displays for most of my days. When I'm out looking at the world I like to actually look at it, not a tiny screen. I am also deeply intrigued by the rangefinder focusing system. The mechanism is brilliant. The idea of becoming so familiar with my camera and lens that I might be able to dial in a shot before bringing it up to my eye is titillating. I can't resist.

 

I found my way to the Leica store in SoHo. I fondled M10, M10-P, M10-R and even M11. And those M lenses. Oh my. I went back home and fell down more YouTube holes. Now there's nothing stopping me. Except for some decision paralysis of where to start. Help me, my internet friends.

 

P vs. R: I should be fine with 24MP. I've never even had a rangefinder. It's probably the best value it will ever be given the recent release of M11, making M10-R the last gen. But... with the Q2 Mono I've been cropping the heck out of the photos I've taken so far. But.... I could just get a longer lens than 28. But... better to save $$ for a lens or 2. But... won't that M10-R hold its value a bit longer? Isn't the sensor newer and therefore will carry me longer? Doesnt it have better low light performance? Help?

 

35 vs 50. I know, I know. Nobody can really answer this for me. At first I was thinking 35, since it's close to the 28 on the Q2M I've been playing with. But I dont think right now I can/should get more than one lens. Both because of $, but also perhaps more importantly I think I should probably stick with one so that I can really master this new system before worrying about changing lenses. I have kids. I like portraits. Sure environmental portraits. So maybe if only one lens, 50 is better. Can get that environment in there but can also get people without being up in their faces. I'm leaning towards 50. It was good enough for Henri...

 

Which 50? I must have watched every video and read every article on the net. I'm pretty sure it's going to be Summilux 1.4. But I found a guy. A good guy. He's got a 50 APO cron ASPH - I could consider it. If it's only going to be my one lens for a while, why not reach for perfection? And glass is a good investment right? Maybe put the money here and stick with the -P for now.  Then someday down the road get an M11 once I've proven this is it for me. But if I'm going to get a near perfect lens, doesnt that mean I should get the R to catch all that goodness? But.... I've never done this kind of photography before.  I'm not Henri.  I'm just getting started.  Isn't this all too much? 

 

You see what's happening to me? Can someone stop me spiraling and get me out on the street already?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

 

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Edited January 30, 2022 by dmarkii

[Darrell]

The 50mm Summilux and APO Summicron are both excellent lenses, but for the kind of pictures you posted I would go with the 50mm APO Summicron.

Given the pictures you posted, I would go with one of the 40MP M10 Models, so either the M10M or the M10R to take advantage of the wide dynamic range that sensor provides. The M10M has more dynamic range than the new M11, but if you are considering shooting color I would go with the M10R as the M11 is going to be hard to get for a while and the M10R is going to be cheaper and can be traded up to the M11 later.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Darrell

[Masukami]

Reading this made me smile. A lot. Rarely is there a post here that communicates such enthusiasm for photography as this one. 
 

You’ve already got an amazing camera and buying another isn’t necessarily going to improve your photography. 
 

If you really want to try out the M, why not get a user M240 and 50mm summicron combo?  And then use it and enjoy it. Every day for at least six months. 
 

That combo is not as expensive as other options, will hold its value, still delivers great images, would be a nice compliment to your Q2M, and gives you the opportunity to dip your toe in the water to see if it really suits. 
 

Only an opinion. Each to their own of course. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Masukami

[andybarton]

3 minutes ago, Masukami said:

If you really want to try out the M, why not get a user M240 and 50mm summicron combo?  And then use it and enjoy it. Every day for at least six months. 

+1

[a.noctilux]

@dmarkii

Nice pictures of NYC 👍 "good eyes" (like we say in french !).

A bit too contrasty though.

 

I understand that the OP didn't want to look anymore the "fake reality" in the tiny TV screen.

Having  the same feeling for so long, I'd take one Leica M + lens that I can use everyday (so not too big).

It's only trying to be sure to accept the M concept.

I see that M246 plus 35 or 50 Summarit-M would be my choice (strange ...😉 this is my go-to kit in many cases).

Those lenses only f/2.5 (my kit) but so small/short without hood and E39 filter size, handy for controlling colored hues "converted" to b&w.

Having to "think" what b&w would look like in the real world color VF is something to learn.

 

[jaapv]

Welcome.  But please post images for display in the image threads and forums, not in the technical/discussion part.

[GFONG]

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6 hours ago, Masukami said:

If you really want to try out the M, why not get a user M240 and 50mm summicron combo?  And then use it and enjoy it. Every day for at least six months. 
 

For low light, the M240 is not very good at high ISO. You may consider the M10 as it price dropped a lot after the lauch of the M11.

[Masukami]

18 minutes ago, GFONG said:

For low light, the M240 is not very good at high ISO. You may consider the M10 as it price dropped a lot after the lauch of the M11.

Arguably, the M10 has about one extra stop of performance at high iso. But (and it’s a big ‘but’) it all depends what you are trying to do with it…

If you want to turn night into day, then yes, go with the M10.  But if you’re making images like the examples from the original post I’m not convinced the M10 gives you that much more.

The M240 is a very underrated camera in my humble opinion and certainly one of the best bargains out there for someone wanting to try out the rangefinder experience.

Both are excellent photographic tools - use them as such and you can’t go wrong. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Masukami

[dmarkii]

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful answers.  Masukami - I hear you about saving some money and dipping in gently wiht the M240, but do you not think there’s something to be said for the 10-R in terms of resolution for crop-ability?  Maybe I’m focused on that, but I know for example that’s why I love the D850 with my wildlife photography. Further, at least with the Q2M, I seem to be cropping quite a bit. 

On the flip side, I’ve heard/read somewhere that perhaps the higher resolution of the -R is less “forgiving” if technique is not perfect.  Is that really a thing?

Edited January 30, 2022 by dmarkii
Forgot to say something

[Adam Bonn]

Like all sound of mind shoppers you seem to understand that money spent just needs to be rewarding and the amount itself is secondary, ie if you spend a lot and you’re very happy then that’s great. If you spend less but aren’t happy then that’s less good than the feeling of saving money.

I think re lenses you’ll end up with 35 and 50. It’s  more a question of which you get first!

Personally I’d take the 50 lux over the 50 APO.. (others will disagree) the APO might have near technically perfect IQ, but the Lux is no slouch and there will be times that you want f1.4.

Its generally accepted as true that more res on the sensor means more discipline is required with the shot, but you’re not flying blind there, you have a Q2M - if you’re fine with that then you should be ok with an M10R

M10R vs M10 is a little trickier… the R has more dynamic range, and a true base ISO of a 100, but these things weren’t enough to justify the price difference to me (OMMV)

The 240 idea is a good one, but if the M bug bites you’ll quickly want to upgrade it I think. It’s a used market bargain, but it’ll feel quite chunky, slow and IMHO the colours are the least pleasing of any digital M… (again omwv), pushed files in post can suffer from banding, occasional catastrophic green colour shifts and it also has IR contamination.

The 240 is a decent enough camera and great for the price, but if the M10 and 240 cost the same on the used market (they don’t!!!), then I doubt very few would chose the 240…

…which is back to my opening line really, buy what you feel is right, not just the cheapest one, unless you’re sure the cheapest one is the one you want.

[Mikep996]

An M10P (or a standard M if you don't need perspective adjustment) with whatever lens you like would be an excellent choice.  Unlike most folks here, I don't care for a 35mm lens.  I find it either too wide or too narrow.  I like my 50 Summicron and my 28 Elmarit M as "normal lenses.  I will carry my 21 and/or 90 if I plan a specific use for them but I never carry more than one additional lens to the one on the camera.  Lately I've been carrying my new M10R BP with just the 28 mounted, making it an expensive (non auto focus) Q2!  

 

 

 

 

[IkarusJohn]

Hi Mark,

I like your decision making process - it‘s easy to get lost in the detail!

Camera - I assume you will keep your Q2M (why wouldn‘t you - good lens matched with an excellent sensor).  For me, the camera is secondary to the lenses - buy once, buy well and then move on.  Each M iteration is slightly different conceptually.  They are not just improvements - the M9 was the first full frame digital M and had a CCD sensor; the M240 was the first CMOS based M, and had video; the M10 was a return to the thinner, video-less M; the M11 has the huge sensor, with permanent live view and cropping.  Each M has its virtues.

For myself, I would get the best option now, and then just make the most of it.  Another thing to consider is that traditionally, the first in a new series (M10 and M11) still have refinement to do - bugs to work through and improvements to be made.  My sense is the last iteration of a series is more resolved and is fundamentally a better camera than the first in the series.

I‘m not sure where the M11 is heading (notwithstanding the glowing reviews - personally, I don‘t need more MP, not into cropping and pixel binning strikes me as strange).  So the choice would be M10-P or M10-R.  I have the M10-D (same as the M10-P, but no LCD), and I love it.  What I read is that the M10-R is an improvement all round, so that would be my choice (despite the MP count).

Lens - There are a multitude of options.  For a start (and assuming you keep your Q2M), 50mm is a sweet spot for the M system and would pair well with your Q2M.

I agree that the realistic choices are the 50 Summilux ASPH and the APO 50 Summicron.  The first has that wonderful Leica trick of being a bit soft and other worldly wide open and sharp stopped down a bit (like the 75 Summilux and the 35 Summilux pre-asph), whereas the APO 50 Summicron is sharper wide open, but still has lovely smooth bokeh.  The 50 Summilux is also getting on a bit (almost 20 years old), where the APO Summicron is the latest and greatest.

The nicest thing about the APO is its size.  I have the black chrome version, and I‘m not sure I would ever part with it.  That would be my choice, much as I love the Summilux (I have both).

So - M10-R with APO 50 Summicron.  A great start, and you can then look at adding to that as funds allow (28 Summilux and the new 90 Summilux or 75 Noctilux) and some older lenses (75 Summilux and 35 Summilux pre-asph).  There are lots of great lenses to try in the future, but the M10-R and 50 APO would be a great start.

Edited January 30, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[KateStarr]

I would vote for a 50mm lens for sure. It's a perfect complement to the 28mm on the Q and you might find you won't need to crop as much with a 50mm.

The Q is a wonderful camera and while the M is special in its own right, the rangefinder experience is different and some folks find they don't enjoy it. I'd look for a deal on a used M10 and try to save your money there. Then I'd get the 50lux. In low light that extra stop can save you from using a high an ISO and in time you'll learn whether or not you really need f1.4. If you don't you can upgrade (or add) a 50APO later.  I started with an M9P and 50lux and had only that body and lens for years - I loved getting to know that one camera and lens so intimately and I took better pictures because of it.

[Masukami]

15 hours ago, dmarkii said:

But.... I've never done this kind of photography before.  I'm not Henri.  I'm just getting started.  Isn't this all too much? 

@dmarkii I think your comment above, from your first post, sums things up well.

 

Perhaps it would help if you first ask yourself what is the big attraction for you: gear, photography or maybe a bit of both?  (none of these are wrong).

If it's the gear (which I doubt considering the way you describe your excitement when making images) then just be honest with yourself and buy whatever is going to float your boat. Finances permitting, grab a M10-R or M11 with a new 50 APO followed by a 35 APO when they are more readily available.  You'll have the very best of the best and no more doubts about what else you could have had.... until you then decide you need a 21 (with visoflex) and maybe a Noctilux and so on...  Of course, none of it will make your photography any better (and having the best kit will give you no excuses if your photography doesn't improve).

But if (as I suspect), it's the photography that you truly enjoy, then perhaps ask yourself (the more difficult question): are you are just looking at the gear as a shortcut in your ambition to make great pictures. If the answer is 'yes' then it's time to step back and consider what's really important...

The danger of asking advice in a gear forum (which this mainly is) is that you're going to receive a lot of gear-related advice. I've learned the hard way: buying gear thinking it will improve my (very limited) skills when I would have been better off investing my time practicing my craft (and investing my money buying photo books for inspiration).   

On that point, if you're looking for inspiration on how to improve your skills, I highly recommend you read the following article:  https://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2014/11/one-camera-one-lens-one-year-the-digital-version.html. It's almost eight years old and as relevant now as it was then.

 

Now, back to the kit question...

 

Your Q2M already gives you a lot of versatility:

28mm full frame   47mp.   f1.7
35mm crop            30mp    f2 (full frame equivalent)
50mm crop            15mp    f2.8 (full frame equivalent)

Looking at this another way, you've got (almost) a 28 summilux, a 35mm Summicron and a 50mm Summaron in one tiny, high-performing camera.

(and don't forget that a 15mp crop is enough to print approx 24 inches wide with excellent resolution).

 

So, do you even need another camera?  

 

If it were me, I'd either:

a) stay with the Q2M, shoot with it daily and only move on when I truly believed the camera (and not my skills) were limiting my progression

or (if I also wanted colour for portraits of the kids / family)

b) get a well used 50mm Summicron (non-APO) or maybe a Summilux ASPH and attach it permanently to an equally well-used M240 or M10.  

 

Both of those options would give you excellent results (with enough practice) and access to equipment that 99.99999% of the world would never dream of being able to own.

And, as an added bonus, with the money you save, you could i) buy some photo books or even ii) purchase a decent printer, learn a complimentary skill and enjoy your images on more than just a digital screen (imho a far better investment when you've got the basic kit covered).

 

At the end of the day, my opinion is just like everyone else's - personal to me and of little value to others.  If you take one piece of advice it would be this: spend less time falling down YouTube rabbit holes and spend it instead on making images that make you happy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Masukami

[Masukami]

6 minutes ago, KateStarr said:

 I loved getting to know that one camera and lens so intimately and I took better pictures because of it.

+1

[dmarkii]

You guys have been amazing. Thank you so much for all of the thoughtful responses!

A detail I should have said is the plan would be to trade in the Q2M as part of this decision. This is somewhat for budgetary reasons, but also quite a bit because of the philosophy expressed in the last few replies - that as a beginner to this platform/genre I’d really like to focus on having one body/lens that I really get to know intimately for a while.  Having both the Q2M and an M would just make it so that I’d need to be choosing which one (or both) to take along, and I  feel like it would dilute the experience of trying to eventually feel like the camera is a part of me (a process I went through with my D500 and then D850 and the very special 500 PF for birds).  And @Masukami the reason I’d choose an M over the Q2M is because I’m charmed by the rangefinder and also I feel better about investing in at least part of the camera (the lens) that can last me a very long time.
 

I like @IkarusJohn’s thought about when in a generation to buy.  I agree that the M10-R feels like a smart idea as it’s the “last” of its generation and therefore theoretically most refined. Also it has lost some of its street value already, whereas the M11 I’d be paying a premium for the shiny factor and it will probably go through some iterations. Finally, @Masukami I think I am into this both for the photography experience and the gear - my “day job” is about gear and tiny details of software and so I think if I go 10/10-P I’ll be more inclined to be wondering about the newer sensor of the R and probably jump more quickly to the 11 which deep down I know is not necessary.  

So, I guess I’m leaning towards an M10-R, used, and a 50mm to leave permanently on for quite a while as I learn to become one with the camera.  Still a bit torn about APO Chron vs Lux.  I can see the various pros and cons.  Low light capabilities, character, and price for Lux.  “Perfection,” size and long term investment (it will be so great on M11-Mono some day🤪) for the APO chron.  I guess I’ll price things out, make the leap, and then stop with the internet and get out there.  I’ll welcome any final advice over the next few days from you guys and then make the move.  After figuring out which 50, then I’ll have to decide on color of body and lens.  And how to unload my Q2M without getting too badly hurt (just a couple weeks old). Oy!!!!

 

[IkarusJohn]

Post some photos once you‘ve made your decision.

[KateStarr]

You seem pretty sold on the idea of an M, but have you considered that maybe you already have the one camera and one lens that you love and find truly inspiring (Q2M)?

 

That's a fabulous one camera/one lens solution too.

[shanefking]

Welcome to the club!

fantastic photos, btw.

My perspective is this:

24mp is PLENTY, even if you want to print big.  And as a working photographer, even the M9’s 18mp is enough for me.  And even its paltry max 1600 iso is enough if you still have your film-era edge.

 Forget about the question of “holding value”, even M9s go for nearly $3000, about a decade after their release.  If you buy a used M10 now you’ll likely lose at most $1500 if you resell it after five years.  Practically nothing in the grand scheme of things.  Then again, an M240 would probably lose almost no value in the next five years.

Its easy to go down the rabbit hole on lenses, and my recommendation is a 50 summilux (I have the ASPH and I’ll take it to my grave).  I also have a 35 cron asph which is also a jewel, especially if you want more space for environments.  Either one could be my “one and only” lens, but I do portraits and that 50 f1.4 is magic.

 

 

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Hallo,

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[shanefking]

43 minutes ago, KateStarr said:

I would vote for a 50mm lens for sure. It's a perfect complement to the 28mm on the Q and you might find you won't need to crop as much with a 50mm.

The Q is a wonderful camera and while the M is special in its own right, the rangefinder experience is different and some folks find they don't enjoy it. I'd look for a deal on a used M10 and try to save your money there. Then I'd get the 50lux. In low light that extra stop can save you from using a high an ISO and in time you'll learn whether or not you really need f1.4. If you don't you can upgrade (or add) a 50APO later.  I started with an M9P and 50lux and had only that body and lens for years - I loved getting to know that one camera and lens so intimately and I took better pictures because of it.

100% agree, especially with that last line.  The M9’s limitations taught me to be a better photographer, and how to really make use of available light.