How to keep Lightroom from ruining M9 colors?

[Lovelandphoto]

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Hi,

Long time lurker, first time poster. I'm a full-time photographer (10 years) with most of my experience in DSLR. I started photographing with Leica about 2.5 years ago because I was heavily attracted to the aesthetics of the images (among a few other traditional aspects of the brand and cameras).

I fell in love with the Leica M9, I love the colors, which have been talked about many times on this forum and other places.

I'm having an issue with Adobe Lightroom and the colors shifting terribly away from the original look of the files. I'll share the basic issue below along with the research I've done to try and correct the issue. I'm hoping to find some solutions here.

Equipment: Leica M9, 16 GB (per recommendation) SanDisk Card, mostly 50mm Summilux lens (some 35 Summicron and 40mm Summicron). Dell Laptop operating Windows 10, Adobe Lightroom Classic (up to date).

When I upload the M9 DNG files from the SD card to my laptop and preview them on the generic photos viewer, the files look wonderful. They have a slightly lower contrast with vivid colors, blues shift towards cyan but retain a broad spectrum of color values within the blue, reds pop, yellows are dense, similar to analog film. It's exactly what I want and I really enjoy the aesthetic.

When I load the files in to Lightroom, the colors are changed quite a bit. I'm not using any presets. For the import settings I'm setting the File Handling to "Build Previews - Embedded and Sidecar" and nothing else. When I export the files I'm exporting in sRGB, full size, no edits / adjustments.

The blues shift noticeably toward the purple-blue end of the spectrum and get heavily saturated, greens are over saturated, oranges become dense (seemingly lower luminosity) and there are more nuances that shift.

I've called Adobe and they say that cameras (M9 in this case) create an embedded JPEG file in to the DNG file. The media viewer (or Library mode in LR) is using this embedded JPEG file to create a preview. When Lightroom reads the DNG file, it recreates its own version of the file. Unfortunately there is no way to work with the embedded JPEG file exclusively.

I tried calling Leica customer support but not luck, "closed due to COVID-19" on their phone-tree message.

I tried calling Adorama to see if they've heard of anything, no luck.

Adobe claims that you can edit your way back to that embedded JPEG aesthetic and then just create a Preset with that information to use for future images. However, that is not the case, there are too many nuances that cannot be adjusted globally and would require specifically area masking / adjusting.

I've uploaded 3 images to Drop Box (here is the link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/cwkl14fblmwvgc1/AAC549gJqB-nxf8Oa3OZxdd6a?dl=0)

1. The original DNG file

2. The DNG file after it has been imported to Lightroom and exported to a JPEG file (no edits, no changes on export, sRGB color space).

3. A JPEG file after I made my own adjustments to the DNG file to bring back as close as possible to the original DNG file aesthetic before importing to Lightroom.

While I think #3 is pretty close to the original aesthetic, there are subtle things that I simply cannot adjust without specifically masking / brushing in adjustments.

For example, in the background of the image on the right side, among the different boats, there are several different shades of blue. The blue bins on the boats, wrapped up fabric, etc. 

Has anyone here had any success retaining the original colors / aesthetics of the DNG files and working with them from this base aesthetic?

 

***EDIT*** - it appears any program rendering the RAW file converts it... Drop Box converts the RAW file to look basically the same as what Lightroom does. The file size (18ish MB) is too large to attach here, not sure how to share what the original aesthetic of the M9 DNG file looks like, any recommendations? (I suppose this goes back to the original issue).

Thanks in advance!

Edited January 29, 2022 by Lovelandphoto

[jaapv]

Oh dear, where to start?  Lightroom does not do anything automatically to your file's colour rendering, that is up to the user. It only follows the profiles and presets as given by Adobe or the presets that you have made default as the user. It will show you previews (jpg) of what it is going to do whilst you are editing and convert the DNG file to an image format when you hit "Export". 

There is no way that the Adobe Customer service can help you there, they are for technical problems with the program, etc. And Adorama is just a camera shop. Leica is a camera manufacturer and will be equally out of their depth with such a problem, although they might refer you to their Leica Academy.
The good news is that the Internet is awash with tutorials and workshops, just use Google.

All three files you posted are rather flat and desaturated and there is a bit of a blue cast. There is something wrong with the default camera profile setting in your Lightroom. Which colour setting are you using? Adobe Standard, Adobe Vivid, Embedded, etc? 
DNG files have no colour, as they are not image files but a data container. The colours are assigned by the postprocessing software and are fully user-adjustable.
DNG conversion is always a global process. Local adjustment is part of the creative process and not during the initial DNG conversion (i.e. making the file displayable on your screen) 

Buy an X-rite Colorchecker Passport and make your own camera profile.Then use it, tweak one representative image to your liking and save as camera default. Lightroom will always open the M9 files with this default.

Maybe the best start would be to do a clean reinstall of Lightroom altogether and adjust the defaults to you liking, or switch to a software that fits your personal aesthetic better.

Before you start make sure the calibration of your monitor is up to date.

[jaapv]

To me, this is what I would do with the JPG that you called DNG:

<click>

Your interpretation will be different, and so will everybody else's be.

 

 

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[jaapv]

And this is the JPG that you named DNG

 

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[jaapv]

And this is what happens when you add a black point: (I did it on the screenshot)

 

 

 

 

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[jaapv]

Just an addition: Adobe Camera Raw works and renders the same as Lightroom.

[jankap]

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9 hours ago, Lovelandphoto said:

When I upload the M9 DNG files from the SD card to my laptop and preview them on the generic photos viewer, the files look wonderful. They have a slightly lower contrast with vivid colors, blues shift towards cyan but retain a broad spectrum of color values within the blue, reds pop, yellows are dense, similar to analog film. It's exactly what I want and I really enjoy the aesthetic.

 

What are the the picture data the "generic photos viewer" uses to show something on your PC? That is an "artists view" of your picture, in short a short JPG file. You yourself have to work out a picture from the raw (DNG) data, as you like it and with the help of Lightroom.

Edited January 29, 2022 by jankap

[Adam Bonn]

The view LR gives you in the library preview is basically (and briefly) the camera jpeg that’s embedded into the DNG (so you have something to look at on the LCD of the camera)

As explained above, once you task LR with rendering the DNG in the develop module then you get adobe’s take on the look of the file.

This look will vary on many things… how old is your LR, what process does it use, is it using ‘adobe color’ (which is a single RGB colour table/3DLUT type thing that’s generic), ‘adobe standard’ which is adobe’s profile for your model of camera.

There’s a third option too, buried in the profiles list that’ll be called ‘embedded’ (or Leica M9, won’t have the word abobe in it basically)

You need to look at all these options to find your best starting point.

If I understand… you basically want the DNG to match the SOOC Jpeg rendering… you’ll need to turn jpg mode on in camera, shoot some stuff (a color chart would be a reasonable place to start) then import both jpeg and dng into LR, then make a preset that matches the dng to the jpg as best as you can…

My complete hunch if I was you, set the default profile for the dng as embedded and set the process version of LR to v2 (2010), you’ll then be working with Leica’s take on how the m9 white balance works, and using LR with the process that was current for your camera back in the day

Sandy McGuffog shared a dcp profile file somewhere on here that MIGHT be of interest to you, that was many years ago though… you can reach Sandy here http://dcptool.sourceforge.net/Contact me.html

Edit:

found it

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15gt07qgeeoABU6VO2KMUqPUO1FabEi_-/view

source

https://sites.google.com/site/chromasoft/referenceimages
 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Adam Bonn

[Adam Bonn]

there's something weird with the dng file you shared...

[Adam Bonn]

ok here's the same file over and over

ZERO edits.

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adobe color

adobe standard

embedded

 

Sandy's dcp file

 

I'd start by selecting which of these profiles most closely matches how you want your own pictures to look, then build a preset around it.

 

 

 

 

 

[jaapv]

I think that the OP's profiles and default settings are messed up. The only solution in that case is to do a clean reinstall and start from scratch. It happened to me once.

[Lovelandphoto]

Hi All,

I appreciate the feedback, but I think the original question may have been lost in my over-written post.

I'm familiar with how to edit a DNG file and the various profiles that can be used.

My question is:

Within the original DNG file there is a "preview" buried that is used to show how the camera manufacturer intended the image to look in it's most primitive form, before it's edited or processed by the viewer. Is it possible to edit the DNG file starting from this base aesthetic and not how the post-processing software renders it immediately?

For example, when you load an image in to Lightroom and view it on the Library module, you notice "Embedded preview" in the bottom right corner of the image.

As soon as you click to the Develop module, the image noticeable changes, the colors shift, and the "Embedded preview" is gone because you are no longer seeing the manufacturer's preview.

I like the look / aesthetic of the embedded preview and I want to edit from that as a base set of colors / aesthetic.

The JPEG + DNG shooting does not solve this, the JPEG created in this way is too saturated.

Ultimately, Leica has a color science to their images that is unique and it's shown in this preview of their DNG files. It's unfortunate that this aesthetic is lost as soon as you start to work the files in post. I would like to edit my files with Leica colors at the start, not Adobe's colors.

Hopefully that helps explain my conundrum a bit more?

Again, I appreciate all the feedback! Thank you.

[Lovelandphoto]

The "embedded" profile for the M9 basically looks just like Adobe's basic profiles (standard, natural, etc). It's slightly different but nothing good.

[jaapv]

33 minutes ago, Lovelandphoto said:

Hi All,

I appreciate the feedback, but I think the original question may have been lost in my over-written post.

I'm familiar with how to edit a DNG file and the various profiles that can be used.

My question is:

Within the original DNG file there is a "preview" buried that is used to show how the camera manufacturer intended the image to look in it's most primitive form, before it's edited or processed by the viewer. Is it possible to edit the DNG file starting from this base aesthetic and not how the post-processing software renders it immediately?

For example, when you load an image in to Lightroom and view it on the Library module, you notice "Embedded preview" in the bottom right corner of the image.

As soon as you click to the Develop module, the image noticeable changes, the colors shift, and the "Embedded preview" is gone because you are no longer seeing the manufacturer's preview.

I like the look / aesthetic of the embedded preview and I want to edit from that as a base set of colors / aesthetic.

The JPEG + DNG shooting does not solve this, the JPEG created in this way is too saturated.

Ultimately, Leica has a color science to their images that is unique and it's shown in this preview of their DNG files. It's unfortunate that this aesthetic is lost as soon as you start to work the files in post. I would like to edit my files with Leica colors at the start, not Adobe's colors.

Hopefully that helps explain my conundrum a bit more?

Again, I appreciate all the feedback! Thank you.

Yes - shoot DNG+JPEG fine  (Adobe RGB) and set LR to import both (that may be the default already) Then you have a comparison - or a final JPG that only needs minimal edits.

[Adam Bonn]

The closest you’ll get to ‘embedded preview’ is the sooc jpeg.

How the camera OEM intended the image will be proprietary.

After that it will all come down to you creating a preset/profile that you prefer.

As jaapv says, you might wanna reset LR and start over, that dng was strange (like you exported a dng from a dng or jpeg maybe)

and besides

14 hours ago, Lovelandphoto said:

I started photographing with Leica about 2.5 years ago

Assuming you mean the M9 it’s taken a while for you to notice… was it always like this?

I think you need to share a DNG from your camera that hasn’t been through your LR, then we can all swap notes from our own LR installs

If that doesn’t lead to a conclusion. Then I’m afraid,

38 minutes ago, Lovelandphoto said:

Is it possible to edit the DNG file starting from this base aesthetic and not how the post-processing software renders it immediately?

No. LR/C1 et el expect you do things their way, it’s kinda their USP in fact.

 

[Adam Bonn]

the file you gave us to play with just isn't right...

the "raw" histogram data is pushed over the way over to the right causing it to look washed out

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[jaapv]

As you can see in my examples, it was the first thing I corrected  

[marchyman]

3 hours ago, Lovelandphoto said:

Within the original DNG file there is a "preview" buried that is used to show how the camera manufacturer intended the image to look in it's most primitive form,

Eh?  I'd disagree with that statement.  It may be what the camera manufacturer thinks most of its customers want to see.  I find SOOC jpegs fine for snapshots that will be shared with friends.  For that kind of photo I'm more likely to use my phone. My cameras, on the other hand, are set up to take DNG only.  The SOOC jpegs were rarely the image I wanted to take.  Also, if the manufacturer intended a specific look why would they give you in camera options to vary that look?

When using my Q, for example, SOOC jpegs would all be monochrome because that's what I like to see in my viewfinder.  It's not what I want the image to look like.

[Ko.Fe.]

On 1/29/2022 at 2:37 PM, marchyman said:

Eh?  I'd disagree with that statement.  It may be what the camera manufacturer thinks most of its customers want to see.  I find SOOC jpegs fine for snapshots that will be shared with friends.  For that kind of photo I'm more likely to use my phone. My cameras, on the other hand, are set up to take DNG only.  The SOOC jpegs were rarely the image I wanted to take.  Also, if the manufacturer intended a specific look why would they give you in camera options to vary that look?

When using my Q, for example, SOOC jpegs would all be monochrome because that's what I like to see in my viewfinder.  It's not what I want the image to look like.

To get good JPEG1 from M9 sensor it has to be on the spot custom WB and metered by external, trusted meter or just S16.

This will give accurate colours and exposure, but it just too much of the hustle.

I do DNG only. But colours not as good as they used to be before latest sensor, glass corrosion fix. 

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[Ko.Fe.]

On 1/28/2022 at 8:44 PM, Lovelandphoto said:

When I upload the M9 DNG files from the SD card to my laptop and preview them on the generic photos viewer, the files look wonderful.

When I load the files in to Lightroom, the colors are changed quite a bit.

It is not just M9 sensor problem, I run into the same with Canon RP .CR3 (RAW) files.