Using powder developers

[nf3996]

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I'm not a prolific film shooter - maybe only half a dozen films a year - but I'd like to get back to developing my own black and white films, which I've not done for around 40 years. I don't have space for a darkroom, but I do have the necessary equipment for film developing (changing bag, developing tank, etc). As I won't be developing many films, I'm attracted to powder developers in the belief that  the unused powder will keep for a long time and that I need only make up sufficient solution for the number of films I intend to develop on any occasion. But is this actually so, or do I need to make up a solution using the whole powder in one go and then use and store the resulting solution until it's no longer viable? If the latter, I may have to reconsider whether powder developers are my best route.

All thoughts welcome.

Alan

[Ornello]

3 hours ago, nf3996 said:

I'm not a prolific film shooter - maybe only half a dozen films a year - but I'd like to get back to developing my own black and white films, which I've not done for around 40 years. I don't have space for a darkroom, but I do have the necessary equipment for film developing (changing bag, developing tank, etc). As I won't be developing many films, I'm attracted to powder developers in the belief that  the unused powder will keep for a long time and that I need only make up sufficient solution for the number of films I intend to develop on any occasion. But is this actually so, or do I need to make up a solution using the whole powder in one go and then use and store the resulting solution until it's no longer viable? If the latter, I may have to reconsider whether powder developers are my best route.

All thoughts welcome.

Alan

Powders are heterogeneous mixtures. You must mix the entire package together at one time.

[M.Hilo]

9 hours ago, nf3996 said:

I'm not a prolific film shooter - maybe only half a dozen films a year - but I'd like to get back to developing my own black and white films, which I've not done for around 40 years. I don't have space for a darkroom, but I do have the necessary equipment for film developing (changing bag, developing tank, etc). As I won't be developing many films, I'm attracted to powder developers in the belief that  the unused powder will keep for a long time and that I need only make up sufficient solution for the number of films I intend to develop on any occasion. But is this actually so, or do I need to make up a solution using the whole powder in one go and then use and store the resulting solution until it's no longer viable? If the latter, I may have to reconsider whether powder developers are my best route.

All thoughts welcome.

Alan

If I were you I'd get a 500cc bottle of Rodinal or whatever it is called now. Given the number of films you shoot that will last you a couple of years and it will stay good! This is a one shot developer, you throw it away afterwards. The advantage is you always have fresh developer.

I use Ilford FP4 and Tmax 400 only (exposed at their standard 125 and 400asa) and use the 1+25 standard dilution. Beautiful grain, not harsh and just right. I can't speak for different films developped in Rodinal.

Edited January 28, 2022 by M.Hilo

[Sandokan]

For ISO100 films, Adox Rodinal or R09 are perfect, and faster speed films become grainy if that is the effect you like. Kodak T-Max developer is also another good liquid one which you can mix and use for a few films before discarding. 

[Aryel]

I recently received lot of advice about rodinal in the forum. You can find lot of information here. Well worth considering I think and it keeps for a very very long time!

Hope this helps 🙂

[nf3996]

Thank you for all your comments. It looks like Rodinal may be the way to go. And developing my own films may encourage me to shoot more in the longer term ...

Alan

[giannis]

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It is true that powdered developers need to be mixed as a whole.

 

However, with the prices that powder devs go (relative to the film itself) it's not worth caring about expiration or wasting them. Xtol goes for $13 for a pack to make 5L. A single roll of TriX is $10. Even if you shot 2 rolls in a six month period, you paid almost double than the bag of Xtol (which is good for 50 rolls depending on dilution). Xtol has a designated shelf life of over 6 months, and practically over a year in full, airtight bottles (like soda bottles filled to the brim). With prices for devs and films being what they are, I don't think it's even worth caring about wasted chemicals with powder devs. With $13/year you can have enough developer to develop your films. Even if most goes to waste, financially it's still a nobrainer when you can have plenty of developer for a whole year for a price a little over one single roll of film.

[Dopaco]

On 1/28/2022 at 1:10 PM, nf3996 said:

I'm not a prolific film shooter - maybe only half a dozen films a year - but I'd like to get back to developing my own black and white films, which I've not done for around 40 years. I don't have space for a darkroom, but I do have the necessary equipment for film developing (changing bag, developing tank, etc). As I won't be developing many films, I'm attracted to powder developers in the belief that  the unused powder will keep for a long time and that I need only make up sufficient solution for the number of films I intend to develop on any occasion. But is this actually so, or do I need to make up a solution using the whole powder in one go and then use and store the resulting solution until it's no longer viable? If the latter, I may have to reconsider whether powder developers are my best route.

All thoughts welcome.

Alan

I have ordered this...   https://cinestillfilm.com/products/df96-developer-fix-b-w-monobath-single-step-solution-for-processing-at-home?variant=16000208044066

The powder package has a weight and is valid for 1 liter of water, you can prepare for 1/4 liter or 1/2 liter. You just have to divide 1000 ml by the total weight of the powder package and then multiply the amount you want to use 1/4 liter or 1/2 liter, this preparation can last up to 16 individual rolls as long as they are well closed and revealed before the determined term indicated in the instruction

I am going to try this product and I will report the results.

[Pyrogallol]

Interesting. Not the usual dev-stop-fix process. I have heard of these all in one chemicals but not something I have used or would recommend except as something unusual to try out. I would have recommended Rodinal which keeps very well for at least a year even in part used bottles.

look forward to hearing how you get on with it.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Pyrogallol

[105012]

I use Ilfotec HC, but another option is the new Parvofin Tablets:

https://tetenal.com/en/consumer-shop/black-white-chemistry/phototabs/

Very convenient?

Edited February 20, 2022 by 105012

[nf3996]

9 hours ago, 105012 said:

I use Ilfotec HC, but another option is the new Parvofin Tablets:

https://tetenal.com/en/consumer-shop/black-white-chemistry/phototabs/

Very convenient?

Indeed. It looks like Parvofin and Superfix may be the route for me.

Thank you.

Alan

[Mr.Prime]

my 2c

 

I've not tried alternative developers but the path I took in returning to film was powder developer. I looked at a lot of different reviews and chats on various forums before making a choice. And along with that, I looked at different images posted in order to get a 'feel' for what I liked the look of. My film of choice is Ilford FP4+ and HP5+. Without pointing to any particular webpage what I found was,

a) I liked the look of images developed in D76 (or ID11) more than other options although staining developers do produce some alternative styles that caught my eye but are too toxic for my liking

b) There's an awful lot of folklore about different developers and people get rather attached to their viewpoints, some folk have used some types of developer for a long time and although that's probably the best approach regardless of which developer you use it means viewpoints become rather fixed

c) Before the advent of digital, when everyone was 'stuck with film' many folk were looking for something that would give them some kind of advantage or some kind of change from their 'usual' developer and even if the differences were subtle there wasn't really many options available. So all sorts of chemistry experiments were done over the years, people got their names attached to variants on popular formula, books of recipes were published etc. Some developers got mythical reputations and secret formula were coveted. After the advent of digital all the excitement died away and slowly the hype about many of these recipes is dying off too with an ageing population. I concluded from all this that I should not get too sucked in by various claims.

d) D76 is the 'standard' that most other developers are compared against and it seems to provide a very good base to begin with. I mixed up a gallon and then divided up the stock solution into little 250ml brown glass bottles that I found on amazon and store them under the sink. I just pull one out when I have a film to develop and usually dilute to 1 + 1 and use as a one-shot. I have not found it to be a cumbersome approach at all, there's a wealth of information about D76 available and I feel 'safe' using it in terms of reliable and consistent results. It also gives me scope for experimentation in terms of development time and dilution if I want. If it expires I'll just pour it away, the cost of D76 hasn't been a driving factor for me, it's still cheaper and more satisfying then using a lab.

 

Of course, I'm curious about other developers and at some point I may want to try one for the 'hell of it'. I don't intend to look at Pyro because of toxicity, Diafine is one that sounds interesting but the images look too flat to me so it'd depend on post-processing to get something useful from it. Rodinal is too grainy with HP5+ for my tastes judging from images published. I also like to use something that is going to be available in the future so that I can maintain a consistent approach and not waste experience-gained. Nevertheless, I keep an open mind, especially for more environmentally friendly options (Xtol maybe similar results to D76, or Cafenol anyone ?).

Edited April 16, 2022 by Mr.Prime

[Pyrogallol]

Try Ilford Perceptol powder 1+3 or Moersch Tanol concentrate 1+1+100.

[giannis]

On 4/16/2022 at 6:28 AM, Mr.Prime said:

my 2c [...]

 

You're just about right with your observations. There are no silver bullet developers, and people do get too attached, going deep into the rabbit hole and wasting effort (and money!) with little results to show that would justify all that. Also, I'd like to add, when people are pushing hard a "silver bullet" developer and exalting its virtues, this is done (maybe subconsciously) with the implicit assumption that "well yes there are some drawbacks, like so and so, but everyone knows about that anyway, so let's focus on the positive sides for the use cases that it actually offers an advantage". Well, truth is, no, it's not true that "everybody knows about the drawbacks", especially so people that are starting out. And hence false expectations are created. For instance, one might sing the praises of Rodinal's longevity and sharpness, but a beginner might not have the "common knowledge" that it also comes with very large grain and a reduction in speed. Or someone might praise (stock) Perceptol's fine grain, and indeed it's probably the finest grain you can get, but they'll omit the fact that you lose a full stop of speed and that the grain is not that well defined in the edges due to the very same solvent action that gives you fine grain. And so on.

A general purpose developer is the best place to start. They're very well rounded and balanced, with no obvious shortcomings. And it's somemthing that will work reliably, with any film, give decent speed and grain, and a generally well rounded result. If someone can't make their pictures work with a general purpose developer (D76, ID-11, etc.), then the developer should be the least of their worries  

In your case, D-76 was a great starting point, as you found out. If you wish to experiment more, there are others to try, but don't expect an all-around improvement in every aspect (grain size, sharpness, speed). Usually, you pick 2 and sacrifice the third. A small exception being XTol, which is a little bit better in every aspect, which is very rare, but that's because it's a newer generation developer incorporating a newly (at the time) researched dev agent, ascorbic acid derivatives (along with Phenidone). However the improvement over D-76 is marginal I'd say, so maybe not worth switching over if you're looking for something appreciably different. (Personally though I'd say it's worth standardising on it, since it seems to be the same price and availability roughly as D-76, so D-76 doesn't offer any advantage over it). Diafine is always something nice to try. Either for speed, or contrast control, or both. Personally, I find it good for night shots, be it cityscapes or live performances with stage lighting etc., or bar/club interiors. The reason being, in these high contrast situations Diafine keeps the harsh highlights very much in check, and on top of that it gives a solid, real 1-stop boost (in shadow detail, so "true" push) with my most used film, HP5+. If you're worried about low contrast, keep in mind contrast adjustment is a single slider in Photoshop, or a single contrast filter away in the darkroom. Flat negatives are always a pleasure to print from, cause they're very flexible in getting the look you want.

 Another option is Perceptol. Also flexible to an extent, if you ever get it, try it in those configurations: stock, for the finest grain you can get (it effectively reduces you ISO in half though), or at 1+3 for still small (D-76 level) yet very sharply defined grain. At 1+3 you can keep the ISO the same, the speed loss is minimal (though giving an extra 1/3rd of a stop of exposure will look even better). In fact, since you have D-76, you can try the same: at 1+3, it will give quite a bit sharper grain, see if you can notice it and whether you like the results. And of course you can also try pulling and pushing with D-76, which will have a profound impact, usually more than changing the developer, see if you like what you see.

And to redeem for the wall of text, some HP5+ in Perceptol 1+3.

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