M10 and M10R colours in the real word

[grahamc]

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Hi M10 and M10R owners. 

I’ve been putting up a pretty weak fight against a recent case of GAS for M10R BP.   I’m an extremely happy M10-D owner but all things considered will probably make this also-very-nice purchase for a second digital camera.  (And this one even has a screen, technology these days gets ever more impressive). 
 

I really like the M10 colours, so my question really is will the 10R render colour more or less identically in all day to day senses ? 
 

I am sure like with most things may be subtle differences in lab tests etc but wanted to check how users have found the transition or shooting both interchangeably ?
 

Thankyou  
 

 

[arriestocracy]

In my opinion the differences are a little more than subtle. I have a BP and my friend has a M10-P Safari - which is essentially the same image quality as your M10-D I suppose.

First the white balance is a little different. My M10-R is consistently a little cooler. And even if I pull up the color temp, there are still some differences tint wise. In short, M10-R SOOC look a tad cooler. 
 

Second, a lot of people confirmed here that the metering policies are different. M10-R tends to underexpose a bit under strong contrast conditions, say dark subjects with strong backlight. 
 

My friend insists that there are no noticeable difference in terms of dynamic range and high iso performance between the two. I’d say the M10-R is a little better with high iso. Beware that Lightroom automatically applies some NR to high iso M10-R DNGs. Some say that instruction was baked in the DNG files in camera.

P.S. From my brief experience with the new M11, I would say the cooler color temp of the M10-R is a one-off thing. It seems the WB signature of warm-ish files are back on track with the new model.

Edited January 26, 2022 by arriestocracy

[jaapv]

And others say that the defaults of Lightroom can be set by the user. The instructions are baked into the settings that user implements.

[grahamc]

14 hours ago, arriestocracy said:

In my opinion the differences are a little more than subtle. I have a BP and my friend has a M10-P Safari - which is essentially the same image quality as your M10-D I suppose.

First the white balance is a little different. My M10-R is consistently a little cooler. And even if I pull up the color temp, there are still some differences tint wise. In short, M10-R SOOC look a tad cooler. 
 

Second, a lot of people confirmed here that the metering policies are different. M10-R tends to underexpose a bit under strong contrast conditions, say dark subjects with strong backlight. 
 

My friend insists that there are no noticeable difference in terms of dynamic range and high iso performance between the two. I’d say the M10-R is a little better with high iso. Beware that Lightroom automatically applies some NR to high iso M10-R DNGs. Some say that instruction was baked in the DNG files in camera.

P.S. From my brief experience with the new M11, I would say the cooler color temp of the M10-R is a one-off thing. It seems the WB signature of warm-ish files are back on track with the new model.

Very interesting. Thanks for the feedback and also your observations on the 11 colours 

[Jeff S]

The M10-R has a completely different sensor, derived from the S3.  The latter has been marketed as having an improved red channel (skin tones); presumably the M10-R received similar treatment.  
 

But as Jaap correctly notes, the user can adjust colors to taste via conversion/editing software, and create default import settings and/or presets for a desired starting point. I say starting point because even basic image-specific adjustments to contrast, for example,  will also affect color saturation. Profiling gear like the ColorChecker Passport can also be used to create color profiles without much effort. 

There is no such thing as out-of-camera color/tonality without some sort of intervention… by the camera company, through the choice of conversion software, and especially by any knowledgeable user.

Jeff

[grahamc]

11 hours ago, Jeff S said:

The M10-R has a completely different sensor, derived from the S3.  The latter has been marketed as having an improved red channel (skin tones); presumably the M10-R received similar treatment.  
 

But as Jaap correctly notes, the user can adjust colors to taste via conversion/editing software, and create default import settings and/or presets for a desired starting point. I say starting point because even basic image-specific adjustments to contrast, for example,  will also affect color saturation. Profiling gear like the ColorChecker Passport can also be used to create color profiles without much effort. 

There is no such thing as out-of-camera color/tonality without some sort of intervention… by the camera company, through the choice of conversion software, and especially by any knowledgeable user.

Jeff

Thanks. I think next stop for me at some point will be the colour checker and trying to match all camera’s colour via profiles . Something I will need to look as I don’t know much currently about profile calibration 

Edited January 27, 2022 by grahamc

[84bravo]

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I use the M10-R and M10-P side by side professionally. I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference between the colors. I find the auto WB to be a bit better in the M10-R, but that's negligible. The only difference that I really see is that extremely high ISO is better in the M10-R and also that the DR is better. The only real advantage that I find with the M10-R is the 40mp sensor allows me to make radical crops that hold up well.

I'm not a pixel peeper, so take my observations with a grain of salt.

[grahamc]

26 minutes ago, 84bravo said:

I use the M10-R and M10-P side by side professionally. I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference between the colors. I find the auto WB to be a bit better in the M10-R, but that's negligible. The only difference that I really see is that extremely high ISO is better in the M10-R and also that the DR is better. The only real advantage that I find with the M10-R is the 40mp sensor allows me to make radical crops that hold up well.

I'm not a pixel peeper, so take my observations with a grain of salt.

Thanks a lot that's helpful 

[Jon Warwick]

On 1/26/2022 at 7:52 AM, jaapv said:

And others say that the defaults of Lightroom can be set by the user. The instructions are baked into the settings that user implements.

On a semi-related note to whether the M10 and M10-R can have a similar look in the real world ….whilst I agree that colours can be profiled in post processing, I’m curious if there is a different default level of “sharpening” applied to DNGs that is specific to each camera? For example, even with sliders in ACR set to zero for sharpening, I often think (for example) that the M10 has more acuity than the M240? So by extension does the M10-R look different in terms of default sharpening (slider set to zero) compared to the M10?

[jaapv]

You are confusing sharpening with detail and acuity.

The only thing the sharpening in postprocessing does is enhance the edge (micro) contrast to create an illusion of sharpness (for simplicity discounting the recent AI sharpening)

The amount of detail and acuity comes from the sensor. (and lens  )

[Jon Warwick]

39 minutes ago, jaapv said:

You are confusing sharpening with detail and acuity.

The only thing the sharpening in postprocessing does is enhance the edge (micro) contrast to create an illusion of sharpness (for simplicity discounting the recent AI sharpening)

The amount of detail and acuity comes from the sensor. (and lens  )

Thanks. Possibly what I’m seeing then is higher acuity and detail from certain sensor-lens combos ….perhaps not implausible the M10 made advances over the M240 in this regard, possibly with regards to its microlenses  even more accurately putting data onto the sensor. Semi-tying it in with the OP, whether the M10-R continues that theme too, I don’t know given I don’t own the latter!

Edited January 29, 2022 by Jon Warwick