Return brand new M10-R black paint for M11?

[M9reno]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

11 minutes ago, Jacobjuul said:

Is a black paint M11 even possible? The new “bottom plate” is no longer brass right? I doubt they can make it brass and still have the same interface. 
If it is not brass it will look silly eventually, a perfectly unworn bottom plate and a brasses top plate. 

A black paint version of the M11 battery underside seems equally unlikely.

[M Journey]

I really don't get some of the arguments levied against the m11.  Why are people saying that the m11 is more complicated than the m10/10-r?  If you set the m11 to medium resolution mode, you can pretty much use the m11 just like you would a m10-r and get slightly better pictures (better dr at low iso, cleaner images at high iso).  Full time metering off the sensor is mostly something that happens in the background except for the extra sound each time you take a picture.  Its more accurate, which you can't be a negative (actually have seen some forum posters say they preferred it to be less accurate as that is what they got used to...).  The extra battery drain from the new metering system is negated by the bigger battery.  The new battery mechanism has to be more simple than the old base plate setup.  If you don't like the look of the bottom of the camera just don't tilt it in a way that you can see it.  It's like saying the backside of a refrigerator is ugly.... You don't have to use any of the other bells and whistles of the m11.  Can't say you are being charged more since the price is the same as the m10-r.  

I mean hdtvs are more complicated over CRTs, but I basically turn it on and set the channel or input.  No one complains about how the hdtvs are more modern and high tech vs CRTs, they just enjoy the better picture quality.  The m11 doesn't stop users from setting their ISO, aperture, focus distance, shutter speed, ranger finder patch, and clicking the shutter, just like back in the m10-r days....

And for the people who are bemoaning the loss of a less accurate metering system, or a base plate....it's like asking for car windows that you had to roll down over just pressing a button...it's really not that great a feature when you think about it. 

It's ok to say the m11 is not worth the price to upgrade.  It's ok to say you don't need or care for the new features.  It's ok to say that using the m11 is a less enjoyable experience for you. Those are all subjective opinions.  It is not ok to say the m11 isn't a better camera.  It is objectively better as a digital camera where the purpose is to take good pictures and denying it just makes you look silly.

Edited January 26, 2022 by M Journey

[NicholasT]

12 hours ago, Artin said:

You would be giving up a lot if stick with the M10R Bp. 
resolution

battery life 

better battery compartment

better hi ISO 

better base ISO 

better DR 

better metering 

faster buffer

improved range finder ( so claimed)

better LCD screen

lighter weight for black body 

much nicer menus 

3 programable buttons 

and when it comes to M10R black paint it was never a special edition so don’t think it will be worth that much more in a few years, but the minute you open the box you will loose 2000 dollars on your investment 

 

 

One important upgrade missing from the list relates to the new EVF. 

While the new EVF will work with M10 & M10R (following March firmware upgrade) it will operate at lower resolution on M-10 / M10R. If one is intending to use the new EVF the added resolution is a very big deal, not only for better viewing/composing, but in particular when one is looking to critically focus a fast lens on a 60MP camera.

For me personally the release of the new EVF was the most significant improvement in the M11 release. The Visoflex 2 is singularly responsible for bringing me back into the M fold having sold both prior generations because I could not reliably / comfortably focus the camera.

To be clear not looking to get in the middle of the rangefinder versus EVF war/debate. I happen to be part of the under represented minority who actually "loves" using range finder focus but for purely practical reasons simply must use an EVF (most of the time).

I also would venture to say that as Leica moves to higher and higher resolutions sticking with range finder alone and keeping mechanical tolerances to a level that allow critical focus with different lens and ever increasing sensor resolutions is going to present a challenge that even the talented engineers at Leica may find daunting.

I firmly believe that with release of M12 Leica will release either a dual EVF/Range Finder (assuming they can pull it off in same footprint) or at a minimum release a dedicated EVF model.

One possibility may include offering M-12 with rangefinder focus + IBIS and other improvements while maintaining the 60MP (with higher ISO capabilities?) and then offer a separate M12 EVF model with higher resolution (also with IBIS) + other improvements.

Turning back to the OP's question since the original intention was to acquire the M11, that would still appear to be the logical choice.

I'd venture to guess that after using the M-11 with above mentioned improvements for a few weeks or months, the BP will be quickly forgotten. That said, this is just one man's opinion and the OP may conclude otherwise, which would be perfectly fine.

PS Will be receiving M-11 this week...re joining the M fold !!

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by NicholasT

[M9reno]

1 hour ago, M Journey said:

It's ok to say the m11 is not worth the price to upgrade.  It's ok to say you don't need or care for the new features.  It's ok to say that using the m11 is a less enjoyable experience for you. Those are all subjective opinions.  It is not ok to say the m11 isn't a better camera.  It is objectively better as a digital camera where the purpose is to take good pictures and denying it just makes you look silly.

I agree, and welcome your rational and measured tone by comparison to others here.  My own view is that subjective preferences dominate when discussing any two Leicas.  “Good pictures” can be made with M10R-BP, M11…. M9 or M3.

In other words, since all is a matter of individual taste and choice, politeness demands: “de gustibus non disputandum est.”

[strohscw]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Al Brown:

Apart from freezing Shinkansen during drive-by with electronic shutter's 1/16000s, what are the photo scenarios that you can do with M11 but can't do with M10-R?

I'm afraid you won't be able to freeze a passing Shinkansen with the electronic shutter, as the sensor readout time is much too slow.

[NicholasT]

It never ceases to amaze how far off topic a thread can get, venturing into untold number of esoteric exchanges, which have little or nothing to do with the original post.

The question, at least as I understood it, was whether OP should keep M10R BP or return it for a full refund and/or exchange for the M11 he originally intended to buy in the first place. Black paint was volunteered as the only issue giving OP pause.

Did I miss something?

How many of the responses in this thread relate to the original question?

Not an issue we’re likely to solve in our lifetimes, but offer it up as food for collective thought

 

[Kwesi]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

15 hours ago, Jacobjuul said:

The Black paint is nice, if it's like my MP, but on the other hand it's silly to forego a better camera just because of some nice paint. 

Therein lies the answer to your dilemma.

[NicholasT]

27 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Off topic is perfectly OK and happens very frequently in this forum, but it's derogatory statements like "Well if you use your Leica as a fashion statement then I guess the black paint is nice, but if it is a photographic tool then the answer is clear" that really get my dander up. I guess David Douglas Duncan and his contemporaries were all just posers making fashion statements, just like all the photographers (me included) using BP leicas for their daily work in 2022. *Strikes a pose*

PS. Love your "Wildlife" and "Landscape" portfolios.

I see your point and agree. I think there is a tendency on the forum to make "throw away" comments to support a position. More often than not these comments are not "intended" to offend, but somehow manage to do so.

Personally I can easily envision someone wanting a Black Paint camera, while simultaneously caring about camera's other features and wanting to take great photos. These are not mutually exclusive concepts. OP's original post doesn't clarify other priorities, beyond Black Paint, although in a more recent post he did shed further light on the subject.

When it comes right down to it, I think we'd all be better served if we simply offer up our views on what works for us personally and avoid ascribing intent or resort to generalizations about the photographic inclinations of others.

Edited January 26, 2022 by NicholasT

[M9reno]

2 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Off topic is perfectly OK and happens very frequently in this forum, but it's derogatory statements like "Well if you use your Leica as a fashion statement then I guess the black paint is nice, but if it is a photographic tool then the answer is clear" that really get my dander up. I guess David Douglas Duncan and his contemporaries were all just posers making fashion statements, just like all the photographers (me included) using BP leicas for their daily work in 2022. *Strikes a pose*

PS. Love your "Wildlife" and "Landscape" portfolios.

Personally I find it bizarre that owning what is undoubtedly a great camera (the M11) there should be need for such defensiveness. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by M9reno

[stefanusj]

14 hours ago, Artin said:

Well if you use your Leica as a fashion statement then I guess the black paint is nice, but if it is a photographic tool then the answer is clear. And chances are there will be a black paint M11 showing up in the next year or 2 

my guess.... next 4 year

[shirubadanieru]

Yeah I feel the new M11 users are very defensive of their new camera lol it’s just a camera guys, no need to protect it, it has no feelings lol 

[grahamc]

Summary:

better = better for who ? 

 

[grahamc]

I thought at the time the release of an M10 variant with all the big crowd favourites of top script, BP and other nice touches so close to the M11 was a bit of a giveaway that the next generation would represent a big step forward in other areas.    i.e. Purchasers having their camera in some ways significantly superseded by the next gen so soon would not feel harshly treated because the variant they purchased had these also-extremely-nice 'features'.

I would say it worked and hence the debate.   Let's be honest they must both be exceptional cameras.

I'd probably go for the 10R on the basis that I like baseplates, don't have a BP camera, don't care too much for the huge file size of a 60ish MP camera (I have another), and most importantly of all I very much doubt I can take significantly better images with one of them versus the other . 
 

The other reason in the mix for me is that I find the experience of shooting with a completely silent shutter a little odd, meaning that the e-shutter is not relevant for myself.

The presumably more malleable files, better metering and extra DR  - I don’t “think” I really need / want them at this point for the way I enjoy to use my M.

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by grahamc
Added stuff

[ELAN]

6 minutes ago, Artin said:

They packed a lot of great features in there without compromising the core values of the system and all we get are these bull sh!# complaints about sound and stickers. 

It may be bull sh!# to you, but maybe not to others.  Calling their opinion bull sh!# is insulting and not very nice.

[grahamc]

5 minutes ago, ELAN said:

It may be bull sh!# to you, but maybe not to others.  Calling their opinion bull sh!# is insulting and not very nice.

That's a fair call 

[NicholasT]

Getting back to talking about cameras.

Just received my M11!!

Super excited in that I'm able to return to owning an M that meets my needs.

Now I can dramatically decrease the size of my kit which will allow me to get out more often to explore and take photos. 

Happy for all those that decide to go for the new M11 and equally happy to those who chose to keep their M10R, M10, M9 or whatever M model meets their needs and inspires them to take great photos.

My last sentence is the only one in this post that's "on topic"

[grahamc]

15 minutes ago, NicholasT said:

Getting back to talking about cameras.

Just received my M11!!

Super excited in that I'm able to return to owning an M that meets my needs.

Now I can dramatically decrease the size of my kit which will allow me to get out more often to explore and take photos. 

Happy for all those that decide to go for the new M11 and equally happy to those who chose to keep their M10R, M10, M9 or whatever M model meets their needs and inspires them to take great photos.

My last sentence is the only one in this post that's "on topic"

Good vibe and congrats on your purchase. 

Can I ask how the m11 is decreasing size of your kit ? 

Enjoy the camera !

[shirubadanieru]

1 hour ago, Artin said:

I am not defensive over the M11 because I bought one , I bought an M10R and was very happy with it . I am very defensive over the direction Leica took with the advancement of the system. They packed a lot of great features in there without compromising the core values of the system and all we get are these bull sh!# complaints about sound and stickers. 

totally with you that complaining about shutter sounds or the shade of black or other things that are irrelevant is nitpicking & doesn't make much sense. & definitely those things don't & shouldn't impact leica's direction.

at the same time, I also get people who nitpick given they do spend a lot of money when buying a leica. I'm sure if they didn't care about details they'd probably be using a different brand. 

[charlesphoto99]

The takeaway: the M11 may make technically 'better' photographs than the previous gens, but it won't make you a 'better' photographer. Only you can do that. Too much 'my photography will be better if only I upgrade to Mxx" going on... no it won't. The M11 is a great camera but it doesn't make any other M 'broken' or lesser. I guess that's my nitpicking. 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[NicholasT]

1 hour ago, grahamc said:

Good vibe and congrats on your purchase. 

Can I ask how the m11 is decreasing size of your kit ? 

Enjoy the camera !

Thanks @grahamc 

Re the reduction in the size of my kit, I sold my M10 and prior to that M240 a long time ago due to challenges focusing with range finder, in spite of my actual enjoyment of the process itself.

Prior to todays M11 purchase I've been shooting with Q2 or SL2. When I want to travel light I just take my Q2 with the obvious single lens limitation. I own some very fine glass for SL2 but even the more compact SL primes are 2x to 3x the size/weight of the average M lens.

With the purchase of the M11 I plan to keep my 24-90 and probably one of my SL primes, but will otherwise switch to M glass for use with M11 when traveling light or on my SL2 when out shooting landscapes (short walks). 

For street shooting I periodically plan to combine Q2 with the M11 + 75mm lens in relatively small bag. Sometimes I find that switching lens in the field results in totally missing the  moment. Having a relatively compact second camera/focal length at the ready can at times make all the difference.

Edited January 26, 2022 by NicholasT