Return brand new M10-R black paint for M11?

[shirubadanieru]

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47 minutes ago, NicholasT said:

In the very short time I’ve had the M11 I’m generally very impressed.

That said, I had similar reaction to ISO performance.

Maybe I was expecting too much from a 60MB sensor but based on color noise will be trying to keep it at 1600 and below with max ISO set to 3200.

Same, I set my Auto ISO to 1600. Anything above that I'm not happy for color unless it's in B&W. I think if in B&W, ISO 6400 or even ISO 12500 should be ok. 

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[Daedalus2000]

15 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

Same, I set my Auto ISO to 1600. Anything above that I'm not happy for color unless it's in B&W. I think if in B&W, ISO 6400 or even ISO 12500 should be ok. 

Iso 6400, Adobe color, default noise parameters in LR. The left part is at middle grey exposure value.

Where is the color noise? I honestly dont know where you see it in your images. Are you looking at deep shadows?

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Edited January 27, 2022 by Daedalus2000

[trickness]

15 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Apart from freezing Shinkansen during drive-by with electronic shutter's 1/16000s, what are the photo scenarios that you can do with M11 but can't do with M10-R?

Use a Nocti wide open in daylight without a ND filter?

[Tailwagger]

2 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

My camera has a few significant bugs…sometimes I press the shutter and it doesn’t fire, sometimes the menu does not select a profile, sometimes when I turn lens detection off it shows ‘off’ in the menu, other times it shows 16 - 18 - 21…whatever the hell that means lol

It probably means that your six bit sensor is a little dirty.  With a new M mount camera (or lens for that matter) there's a bit of mechanical bedding in the mount so to speak. The sensor can get some fine particles on it and misread the lens type... you're getting a WATE at the moment... If you just wipe it down the mount that most likely will take care of the problem. 

[shirubadanieru]

1 hour ago, Tailwagger said:

It probably means that your six bit sensor is a little dirty.  With a new M mount camera (or lens for that matter) there's a bit of mechanical bedding in the mount so to speak. The sensor can get some fine particles on it and misread the lens type... you're getting a WATE at the moment... If you just wipe it down the mount that most likely will take care of the problem. 

the feature is turned off though..lol so it shouldn't be trying to detect anything.

[shirubadanieru]

1 hour ago, trickness said:

Use a Nocti wide open in daylight without a ND filter?

this is 100% true! i've been shooting lux wide open against the sun, pretty awesome

[shirubadanieru]

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1 hour ago, Artin said:

Shiru you might have a bum camera in your hands, I have had mine for 12 days now using it every day and my battery life is very good I get 800 + shots, have not seen any noise issues up to ISO 6400 and no bugs at all everything is working as it should 

yeah i asked Leica to do further testing and asked my friend who was interested in buying to hold for a while. Should get back next week so I should know then.

[NicholasT]

5 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

Same, I set my Auto ISO to 1600. Anything above that I'm not happy for color unless it's in B&W. I think if in B&W, ISO 6400 or even ISO 12500 should be ok. 

+1

Totally agree. For B&W much higher ISO should be fine.

There doesn’t appear to be an issue with the overall character of the noise itself,  just the color

[ELAN]

6 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

Same, I set my Auto ISO to 1600. Anything above that I'm not happy for color unless it's in B&W. I think if in B&W, ISO 6400 or even ISO 12500 should be ok. 

So here's a photo from the M11 at ISO 1600 at 60MP.  The next post shows a 100% crop.  I think I see about the same amount of noise as I do from the M10-P at ISO 1600.  The noise is perhaps more pleasant than from the M10 sensor and the colors seem to hold up better.

M11, 35 lux, f/2.4, ISO 1600, 1/160s

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[ELAN]

100% crop

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[shirubadanieru]

29 minutes ago, ELAN said:

100% crop

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Yup…this is what I’m seeing at ISO 1600 too, which is acceptable, but I thought the M11 would be better here from what I had read. I’d say this kind of noise should come at ISO 3200 and then the color noise should come in from ISO 6400 or so…but it’s not as great as expected. Still good, but not a big departure from the M10. Of course, for High ISO, the M10M is miles ahead of any camera, but it does not have color so…trade off lol

[hillavoider]

How are you going to see that noise at 100% crop when not looking at a 100% crop, or does it show in big prints? 

if you dial up noise reduction in LR does it solve the problem? 
 

I got a M11 on order so would love to know 

thanks in advance 🙏

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by hillavoider

[lpeeples]

On 1/26/2022 at 2:49 AM, NicholasT said:

 

One important upgrade missing from the list relates to the new EVF. 

While the new EVF will work with M10 & M10R (following March firmware upgrade) it will operate at lower resolution on M-10 / M10R. If one is intending to use the new EVF the added resolution is a very big deal, not only for better viewing/composing, but in particular when one is looking to critically focus a fast lens on a 60MP camera.

For me personally the release of the new EVF was the most significant improvement in the M11 release. The Visoflex 2 is singularly responsible for bringing me back into the M fold having sold both prior generations because I could not reliably / comfortably focus the camera.

To be clear not looking to get in the middle of the rangefinder versus EVF war/debate. I happen to be part of the under represented minority who actually "loves" using range finder focus but for purely practical reasons simply must use an EVF (most of the time).

I also would venture to say that as Leica moves to higher and higher resolutions sticking with range finder alone and keeping mechanical tolerances to a level that allow critical focus with different lens and ever increasing sensor resolutions is going to present a challenge that even the talented engineers at Leica may find daunting.

I firmly believe that with release of M12 Leica will release either a dual EVF/Range Finder (assuming they can pull it off in same footprint) or at a minimum release a dedicated EVF model.

One possibility may include offering M-12 with rangefinder focus + IBIS and other improvements while maintaining the 60MP (with higher ISO capabilities?) and then offer a separate M12 EVF model with higher resolution (also with IBIS) + other improvements.

Turning back to the OP's question since the original intention was to acquire the M11, that would still appear to be the logical choice.

I'd venture to guess that after using the M-11 with above mentioned improvements for a few weeks or months, the BP will be quickly forgotten. That said, this is just one man's opinion and the OP may conclude otherwise, which would be perfectly fine.

PS Will be receiving M-11 this week...re joining the M fold !!

 

well said

[tashley]

15 hours ago, Jacobjuul said:

Thanks, that's very useful and probably what I know deep down. I guess reading all the complaints about the M11 just affected me. (shutter lag/sound/sony colors, probably from people who don't own the camera, but still...)

The 'Sony Colours' thing is just plain nonsense. Ignore it. It's from people who don't know their LR from their C1.

[Daedalus2000]

9 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

Yup…this is what I’m seeing at ISO 1600 too, which is acceptable, but I thought the M11 would be better here from what I had read. I’d say this kind of noise should come at ISO 3200 and then the color noise should come in from ISO 6400 or so…but it’s not as great as expected. Still good, but not a big departure from the M10. Of course, for High ISO, the M10M is miles ahead of any camera, but it does not have color so…trade off lol

This is not noise at iso 1600... This is noise at the dark parts of an image taken at 1600 iso, but these parts reflect much lower light values than a middle gray at iso 1600... Also can you tell us what noise reduction values you used and what raw processor?

I presented in a previous post actual noise at iso 6400 at the middle gray values. Noone comments on that, I guess people just focus on the posts that verify their views only...

Edited January 27, 2022 by Daedalus2000

[Daedalus2000]

6 hours ago, hillavoider said:

How are you going to see that noise at 100% crop when not looking at a 100% crop, or does it show in big prints? 

if you dial up noise reduction in LR does it solve the problem? 
 

I got a M11 on order so would love to know 

thanks in advance 🙏

 

I have the M11 and I can tell you the noise is very low at high isos. But download some dng files yourself and check. The M11 has great high iso performance with good color, it is a great camera.

[349A]

Had a M11 in my hands. Own a M10R BP. I much prefer my M10R BP as an object and a tool. It feels better in my hands which inspires me to take it out.  I see zero real world benefits in images so far on the M11, my eyes are open. Sure, a few nice new features but at the cost of not feeling as good in the hands, to me. If I was forced to swap, I wouldn’t be unhappy as the M11 seems to be a wonderful camera and a small advancement technically. I like less weight in theory, I don’t like the feel of less weight on the black M11. It feels less substantial. Just a feeling, not a fact. 

I have yet to see real world photographic reasons to change. I see the repeated over and over “my vintage lenses draw so much better on the M11” comments by those trying to rationalize their purchase while the evidence isn’t there to my eyes. Jury is still out, I’ll keep enjoying my BP and see what future firmware brings to the table on the M11. 
 

I’m happy Leica is continuing to try to move the system forward. The battery life and built in memory are cool. For me, low light and image quality are the only things that will get me to change. I’m not seeing that so far, I’ll be waiting on the M12 while brassing up my BP. 

[charlesphoto99]

Handled an M11 today. Nice camera. I would say the shutter sound/response is all to do about nothing. And I kinddo like the sound of the shutter on startup - let's you know when the dang thing is ready. Quick look through Viso - I can see how some like it, not really my thing. Now if it was a cinema/sports style one that I could see a foot from my face I would have bought on the spot. Otherwise nice back panel, screen etc.

The thing I liked least was the new black finish; it fell dirty to me, for lack of a better description. I'm sure I would get used to it, but it also had a weird OCD like thing where you want to rub it all the time, but the don't, but then do... I guess because it feels so different from any other M camera. 

I have a feeling Leica has been selling a few of them; their case was full of used Q's, SL's, and M-10P's etc. Good win from Leica, but I wonder how dealers are doing absorbing all that trade-in? 

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[shirubadanieru]

12 hours ago, Daedalus2000 said:

I have the M11 and I can tell you the noise is very low at high isos. But download some dng files yourself and check. The M11 has great high iso performance with good color, it is a great camera.

I also have the M11 and I don't have the same experience lol unless you mean ISO 1600 = High ISO : p 

Either way, it's not night and day between the M10 and the M11, it's a very minor improvement when it comes to low light performance. And as Reid Reviews showed, the M10R performs better than the M11 all the way up to ISO 6400, although it's almost the same. 

8 hours ago, 349A said:

have yet to see real world photographic reasons to change. I see the repeated over and over “my vintage lenses draw so much better on the M11” comments by those trying to rationalize their purchase while the evidence isn’t there to my eyes. Jury is still out, I’ll keep enjoying my BP and see what future firmware brings to the table on the M11. 

In terms of the black finish, I actually prefer this finish to the black chrome, but again the change is so minor I doubt anyone would notice unless being told. Of course, the black paint finish is still the most beautiful finish (for me), and that is only available with the M10R or M9. 

In terms of rendering better etc, to be honest all my vintage lenses render amazingly well on either film, the M9, the MM, or the M11. That's why I have them : ) I don't think my summilux pre-asph renders any better on the M11 VS M9, M10 or film. I can definitely say they render in a unique manner on the MM but that's because it's such a unique sensor VS all other digital sensors, and also probably because we're seeing the results always in black and white. Anyway, if there is a difference, it should be minor, and not enough to justify buying the M11. 

To me the biggest advantage of the M11 is the ISO 64, as it allows you to do things you couldn't before (given the actual real ISO of the M10 is ISO 200, not 100). So I can now shoot my Summilux wide open in bright day light without any problems. Other than that, everything feels like a very minor upgrade from the M10R to the M11, so if you have an M10R there's definitely no need to upgrade. That being said if I were to buy a new body today and the price is roughly the same, I'd obviously go for the latest sensor technology and newest body.

[Tailwagger]

18 hours ago, 349A said:

Had a M11 in my hands.

For how long and under how many actual shooting conditions?

19 hours ago, 349A said:

I see the repeated over and over “my vintage lenses draw so much better on the M11” comments by those trying to rationalize their purchase while the evidence isn’t there to my eyes. Jury is still out,

So in other words, not long enough for you to be definitive about it one way or another.  I own them both, I could sell the M11 for what I paid for it. I can sell the M10-R for several K less than I paid for it. Which one do you think I'm keeping?

It's perfectly reasonably to come to an opposite conclusion, but the underlying 'you a-holes are just a bunch of idiots trying to convince yourselves you did the right thing', comes off as disingenuous and insulting. Go back and read my initial posts on the 10-R. One of the very first things I said about it was that I was not happy with the way the older glass rendered on it. Over time I figured out how to get around some of the difficulty, but mostly those lenses fell out of the rotation and made me regret not keeping the M10. One of the few disappointments with what otherwise has been a terrific camera. With the M11, it was immediately clear that this camera had brought back a lot of the magic of the 24Mpx cameras. There are dozens of other improvements that elevate the 11 over the 10-R. Believe or don't believe, these things can be very subjective, depend on shooting style, lens selection or vary depending on the methodologies use in the workflow. But let's agree not to question the integrity of those that do.