need help... SL2-s slow and freezing-up experience

[littlelio]

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First of all, there is no conclusion, I just want to check if anyone had similar experiences. If I missed anything please advise I am glad to fix it, if not, it is sad but maybe I just need to change how I use it.

Today I used my SL2-s with 24-90 SL lenses (with latest firmware updated) for a studio shooting session. It lasted around two hours. There were two issues:

First problem is the flash trigger. I used Nikon mount Godox V1 and X2T trigger (to trigger AD200, not at the same time but two different settings). I used all manual mode (camera M and flash M). With either the speedlight or the trigger, it happened multiple times that the flash was not triggered so I just got a dark image. I used it with a style where I pressed the shutter fairly quickly several times. I did this all the time with my Nikon gear ( DSLR and mirrorless), so I am pretty sure it is NOT the flash charge cycle problem.

It is a very basic flash trigger only mode, but Leica camera still does not like Nikon mount flash equipment? I don't know... If so, what flash mount system should I try?

Second, similar to above, by pressing the shutter botton, there was simply no response of the camera i.e. I could see EVF fine, but just no picture was taken. I have to wait a bit, and tried two or even three times, then the flash worked and I was able to capture the picture. (As I noticed, the red LED reflecting SD card working status had blinked and off, but still I could not take the photo, so it was not like the camera was buffering when I pressed the shutter release)

And thirdly, even worse, TWICE across 2-hour session, the EVF froze up i.e. EVF showed the image and got stuck, no button interaction would fix it, even I turned the power off. So, naturally, I pulled the battery out and re-inserted it, then I was back into work. Last image was not recorded, but everything else seemed fine.

It was not a pleasant experience, but I do not blame Leica. I KNOW Leica is not famous for its fast response, but since I heard latest SL2/SL2-s improve a lot (comparing M8/M9 especially), I have to say my expectation was a bit higher. I might shoot in a fairly fast pace indeed, but just my 'regular' pace to capture a moment not like I want to push the camera to ridiculous limit. The subjects were kids by the way.

The SD card is Kingston Canvas React PLUS 128G which is 300MB/s read and 260MB/s write rating.

So, my question is:

Is this 'normal' for Leica SL2-s, or I had something unusual? If the answer is the latter one, did I do anything wrong? So far I guess the freezing-up may be due to the SD card, but the missed flash output is another topic, but I have no idea.

Any comment is apprecaited. I will keep trying like a difference SD card etc. Thanks guys!

 

Best,

Leon

 

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[littlelio]

Thanks! I tried search but no good results. Now I will track those threads now. Cheers!

[littlelio]

OK some updates.

As I guessed, highly possibily the SD card is the culprit.

I used another SD card, Sandisk Ultra, 80MB/s reading rating, much slower, and formatted it in the camera. I put on V1 flash and pressed shutter release like I worked earlier today. There was some misses but it could be the delay from AF. After I turned AF off, most of the shutter worked and I think it is quite okay.

Then, I put the Kingston SD back. NOT suprising! I EASILY crashed the camera and it froze again after some agressive clicking!

Sorry there was an important lead: I just realized that THIS SD card has never been formatted, it used to live in my Sigma FP, then Panasonic S5, then Sigma FP, recorded many still pictures, AND loads of short and long video clips.

So far I think the case closed, but I will keep an eye on it!

[beewee]

I have 2x 256GB Kingston Canvas React Plus cards but never had this issue. Not sure where you got the card but it’s possible that it may be counterfeit if not purchased from an official and reputable dealer.

[Anakronox]

No issues using my Godox X-Pro Nikon trigger with a mix of AD200 Pro, V860II, and V350 lights.  When I shoot with lights I work slower to give the strobes time to recharge (and also because I often shoot in tandem with a trigger on my Hassy V - the new triggers allow multiple shooters with different settings!).  I’ve maybe had 3 or 4 shots where the lights weren’t triggered, but that was an outlier and I never figured out the cause.  Between one miss and the next shot, the lights fired and all was well.  Sorry to hear you’ve had problems but good to know that the card was likely the culprit.

[LocalHero1953]

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No issues with my Godox X-Pro Canon trigger, but I've heard the Nikon version works just as well.

[littlelio]

OK I have some updates... Previously I thought the SD card might caused the issue, but today I got a new SD card, with a 1 hour long studio session, and it happened again... same setup, with the same godox Nikon X1T (Sorry, the model was X1T NOT X2T, it is the oldest model) trigger with AD200.

Maybe some personal perception factor, I felt the camera responsed faster than last time, but still...

There were some unresponsive shutter releases pressed (better than last time, I think), but ultimately, there was ONE crashed experience and I had to pull the battery😐

From my observation, I found/felt this unresponsiveness was related to the trigger:

A, If I pressed the shutter release and no action, then I triggered the flash once, and the camera was back to live.

B, Or, I could take the trigger off, and re-inserted. The camera could be back to live.

 

Thanks to all the posts above, and I found most of Godox triggers worked, but the model is X-Pro (for Nikon or Canon), not my X1.

Maybe I will buy another trigger to test. It is funny if the trigger could crash the camera, but I have to rule this out. So far I used the camera well without the trigger/flash system, never had any complaint.

 

I will keep this post updated. I hope it may help anyone has similar issue as I am.

Edited February 14, 2022 by littlelio

[littlelio]

OK I think I solved it.

First of all, the freezing issue DOES caused by the flash trigger.

After searched the entire internet (not much Leica with flash setup), finally I got some clue. I can repeat below problem definitely:

1. Put the trigger (Godox X1T Nikon version in my case) on the SL2S, but keep it turned OFF
2. Set camera to M mode, with a quite dark setup, such as ISO800, F10, 1/125 in my case (this is my studio flash setup)
3. Set live view mode to P-A-S-M
4. Now the live view should be quit dark. Switch ON the trigger.
5. The live view will keep switching between bright and dark (given the environment is dark, etc. indoors).

As you may know, dark = live view showing the real exposure i.e. the flash is still OFF, bright = live view showing emulated exposure to help you to see what's going on, which is NOT the real exposure.

(By the way, if you half press the shutter release, the live will be bright as well, for one moment)

If you know what I am saying, you will immediately tell me to switch step 3 to P-A-S, so the live view will be bright all the time ( and this would be the logical choice when we want to do in a studio setup). There will be this crazy switching.

SO, it is quite clear that something is wrong here, and the root cause is the trigger. Because this only happened when I turned the trigger ON.

The rest can be inferred as:

1. When the trigger is on, due to the protocol misunderstanding (Nikon VS Leica), the camera somehow tries to do something. For example, turn on the exposure evaluation, or just as the shutter release is half-pressed, or anything else. Not that X1T is a transmitter with TTL, so it is not surprising the trigger tries to tell the camera to evaluate the exposure, even we have told the camera not to do that)
2. The continuous switching between dark and bright i.e. real exposure / emulated exposure consumes much chip computing power.
3. Result: actions like data overflow in a computer system -> the system is unresponsive -> the shutter release does not responsive
4. Worst case: a system crash -> the camera freezes up.
5. Pull the battery is the only way to fix it.

Note that this Godox X1T trigger on SL2S is not totally unusable. It works, just:

• I can take quite a lot photos with flash triggered, just not in a very high speed (way slower than my Nikon camera setup)
• When the shutter release stops response, taking the trigger off and put on again will fix it.
• Or wait for some time, but in a real working scenario, it is very frustrating. I would rather take the trigger off and put on, which can make my subject understand what happened instead of standing there...
• The crash case is rare. However as I can count, one crash per hour is not uncommon.

Ok, the fix.

We have discussed the cause, after I saw someone from internet mentioned this, and I tried then the result is positive.

Just block all the other pins from Nikon flash protocol and leave the only pin to trigger the flash. (I am not expecting TTL or HSS anyway)

As you could imagine, without all the mess to make the camera/computer struggling with non-sense, everything should be back to normal. How do we know this is achieved? Simple - the live view stops flickering between dark and bright.

How to block it? Two options:

-Elegent version::

There is an existing product, a hot shoe converter such as this:

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

-My ugly DIY version:

Of course I want the elegant one but I am not sure. So before I buy it, I have to test it.

Just use some tape block the rest contact points and leave the center one. Put the trigger on.

The result is positive:

• With trigger turned on, no more flickering in M mode with live view on
• The shutter release is VERY responsive with each click, the flash always works. No more miss. (note, depending on AF performance, there is still some delay between flash and shutter release press, but that's another topic. To prove this, I switched to MF mode, and the result is consistent)

CONCLUSION

Off brand flash will work with Leica, no more TTL or HSS obviously, BUT, to get the best performance, make sure block all the other pins except the center pin, which actually the only pin to trigger the flash.

Again, you can completely ignore all above information and continue to use your flash with Leica (SL series). I am just evaluating my shooting style and pace, where the 3rd party flash solution is very much limited compared with my previous experience. However, if you wonder what really happened and want to fix it, here it is.

So whom to blame?

• Godox? I don't think so, because this trigger is for Nikon, not Leica...
• Leica? As many mentioned, Leica does not put much efforts into flash system. I am in no position to judge the company, but a special flash protocol and not open to 3rd party obviously make everything more complicated. Leica does have SF C1 and other speed flash, and now I am not going to discuss the price. These products are way behind current products (such as Godox, if I may) on the market, where the recharge time of lithium battery is much shorter, output power is much higher, which are simply easy to use. Leica's flash system is a closed loop, and the comsumer has no choice. If there is a better solution with cheaper cost, why I should pick an expensive and, more importantly, inferior product?
• Or me... Maybe I can just stick with Nikon, or use all Leica product... (Even if I have a very deep pocket, Leica flash is just, meh...) [side note: some would say you can use Leica flash along with other flashes, if you use SF C1 to trigger the only Leica flash, to trigger the rest flash via S1/S2 settings. Yes it is possible, but is it necessary? ... especially in the context that only need single flash is needed...]

I honestly doubt many would have same situation as me, but in case you are, I hope above writing can be helpful.

 

Best,

Leon

Edited February 14, 2022 by littlelio

[BernardC]

Part of the problem is that Nikon and Leica's hotshoe pin positions are very similar. This means that Nikon-compatible flashes are more likely to cause errors on Leica cameras, since the communication pins are making contact. This problem is less likely to happen with other flash systems (Canon, Sony, Panasonic, etc.). The best solution is to find a basic hotshoe adapter that only has a single pin, if your flash system offers one.

As you mention, this issue isn't huge in the big scheme of things. You do lose HSS with non-compatible flashes, but TTL isn't as useful with digital cameras. I prefer to work in manual so that I know that I am getting the same exposure every time. It works very well if you are bouncing the light, or using a softbox, but I guess it wouldn't work as well with direct on-camera flash (which is a look that goes in and out of fashion).

For instance, if you are bouncing off-of a white ceiling, the ceiling height won't change from shot to shot. It's better to set the flash output once, knowing that your exposure will be consistent until you switch locations. TTL flash will get fooled by light/dark clothing, different compositions, etc., which means more work in post.

[littlelio]

On 2/15/2022 at 11:18 PM, BernardC said:

Part of the problem is that Nikon and Leica's hotshoe pin positions are very similar. This means that Nikon-compatible flashes are more likely to cause errors on Leica cameras, since the communication pins are making contact. This problem is less likely to happen with other flash systems (Canon, Sony, Panasonic, etc.). The best solution is to find a basic hotshoe adapter that only has a single pin, if your flash system offers one.

As you mention, this issue isn't huge in the big scheme of things. You do lose HSS with non-compatible flashes, but TTL isn't as useful with digital cameras. I prefer to work in manual so that I know that I am getting the same exposure every time. It works very well if you are bouncing the light, or using a softbox, but I guess it wouldn't work as well with direct on-camera flash (which is a look that goes in and out of fashion).

For instance, if you are bouncing off-of a white ceiling, the ceiling height won't change from shot to shot. It's better to set the flash output once, knowing that your exposure will be consistent until you switch locations. TTL flash will get fooled by light/dark clothing, different compositions, etc., which means more work in post.

Exactly, when I was working with speedflash on Nikon cameras for events, I tended to use manual because just as you mentioned, same situation with different people the exposures were different and more work in post.TTL may be good for once at the beginning then stick with such setup in manual. However since everything is manual (flash and camera), just remember to change them back when the scene is changed...

By the way, after some experiements, I found that only blocking 1 pin would make the Nikon flash work with Leica. The one on the left of the center pin. And yes, a vastly different hotshoe layout actually can avoid such mess. As I understand, some error may cause a dumb flash, who could expected a camera system crash...

The adaptor arrived which convert Nikon hotshoe to a single trigger mount, and it works beautifully. Thanks God it is not the problem of my Leica body at least.

[OleBe]

For the Godox Pro N Triggers it is really easy to open them up and remove the springs of the contacts which are meant for data contact. Since TTL etc. is not working anyway with the Leica, you leave only the middle contact intact. No issues, easy fix and of course you can reassemble the trigger if needed.

[Billylondon]

On 2/17/2022 at 3:49 PM, OleBe said:

For the Godox Pro N Triggers it is really easy to open them up and remove the springs of the contacts which are meant for data contact. Since TTL etc. is not working anyway with the Leica, you leave only the middle contact intact. No issues, easy fix and of course you can reassemble the trigger if needed.

Would you mind explaining how you open the Godox and remove the springs? Presumably this approach would work also with a speed light like the TT350? 

Thank you ! 

 

[OleBe]

vor 44 Minuten schrieb Billylondon:

Would you mind explaining how you open the Godox and remove the springs? Presumably this approach would work also with a speed light like the TT350? 

Thank you ! 

 

maybe I can do a short step by step guide next week with pictures.

[Billylondon]

57 minutes ago, OleBe said:

maybe I can do a short step by step guide next week with pictures.

That would be awesome if you have the time - thanks ! 

[OleBe]

Okay gents, have put it quickly together.

Step 1: Remove cover and battery and unscrew these two cross screws

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Step 2: Open the trigger carefully in order not to damage the cables

Step 3: Unscrew the small black cross screws of the AF assist light and pull it out. You can remove both cables from the main board if you like, it is not necessary to do so

Step 4: Remove the 4 silver cross screws and pull out the board

Step 5: You can see the 4 springs which are usually creating the contact from the pins on the bottom to the receiving board

Step 6: Layout is still in its original configuration

Step 7: Turn it over and remove all springs and pins

Step 8: Insert one pin in the middle, rounded side down and afterwards the spring back into its place

Step 9: Reassemble the unit starting from step 4 in reverse order

Step 10: All back together and working fine with Leica now  Keep in mind, only manual modes are working, but these do so without any issues.  

Edited March 23, 2022 by OleBe

[FrankX]

Am 17.2.2022 um 09:10 schrieb littlelio:

Exactly, when I was working with speedflash on Nikon cameras for events, I tended to use manual because just as you mentioned, same situation with different people the exposures were different and more work in post.TTL may be good for once at the beginning then stick with such setup in manual. However since everything is manual (flash and camera), just remember to change them back when the scene is changed...

By the way, after some experiements, I found that only blocking 1 pin would make the Nikon flash work with Leica. The one on the left of the center pin. And yes, a vastly different hotshoe layout actually can avoid such mess. As I understand, some error may cause a dumb flash, who could expected a camera system crash...

The adaptor arrived which convert Nikon hotshoe to a single trigger mount, and it works beautifully. Thanks God it is not the problem of my Leica body at least.

Did you try to put your trigger into single-pin mode? It is not well-known, but it is there…😉

Just google Godox X1T single pin! Should solve the problem (hopefully).

BTW, Godox XT16 works great with all my Leica cameras! It has only a single pin 😊

Edited March 25, 2022 by FrankX

[Billylondon]

On 3/23/2022 at 11:48 AM, OleBe said:

Okay gents, have put it quickly together.

Step 1: Remove cover and battery and unscrew these two cross screws

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Step 2: Open the trigger carefully in order not to damage the cables

Step 3: Unscrew the small black cross screws of the AF assist light and pull it out. You can remove both cables from the main board if you like, it is not necessary to do so

Step 4: Remove the 4 silver cross screws and pull out the board

Step 5: You can see the 4 springs which are usually creating the contact from the pins on the bottom to the receiving board

Step 6: Layout is still in its original configuration

Step 7: Turn it over and remove all springs and pins

Step 8: Insert one pin in the middle, rounded side down and afterwards the spring back into its place

Step 9: Reassemble the unit starting from step 4 in reverse order

Step 10: All back together and working fine with Leica now  Keep in mind, only manual modes are working, but these do so without any issues.  

A big (belated) thank you ! Very helpful. 

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Hallo,

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