IR filters

[Printmaker]

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I know this has been discussed before, but searching old posts did not result in any difinitive answers. Besides purple blacks in plastic fabrics are there any other colors that absolutely need an IR filter to correct. So far my experience shows little reason to bother with filters/codes. I've filtered and coded my 35 CVM and see little difference. (Again, besides black fabric.)

 

Before I order a 28 mm lens mount for my Zeiss 21 and have it milled so I can code it, why exactly should I be doing this? Am I missing something?

 

Thanks in advance

Tom

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[rwfreund]

It all depends on the reflectance of wavelengths in the near IR range as a proportion of the total reflectance combined with the spectral distribution of the light source.

I have seen some foliage exhibit color shifts, particularly spruces but not yews, for example.

Many city landscapes are actually enhanced without use of the ir filter, especially when rendered in B&W.

-bob

[dpattinson]

I can't claim any scientific method - however my observation is that shots taken with my 24mm asph appear sharper with the filter, regardless of whether I desaturate or not. My suspicion is that this may be due to IR light not focussing in the same plane as visible light, and therefore reducing micro-contrast and perhaps blurring edges in a similar way to flare.

 

I have also observed light foliage to appear 'wrong' without the filters in bright sunlight. I can recall peppercorn trees in particular. In this case the definition of the leaves was not as good as I expected as well, howeveer I haven't been back to Australia since I got a filter - so can't confirm if it makes a difference specifically.

[Printmaker]

Thanks David & Bob,

 

To review, possibly sharper and some foliage shifts color.

 

It might be the subjects I'm shooting... palm trees, surf, people, deep blue sea, light tourquoise bays, black lava rock, red dirt, orchids, etc. I have not yet taken the M8 into the interior jungle to see how it handles leaves. Maybe if I can take some time off, I'll go back into the Kalalau Valley for a few days shooting.

 

The color shifts in the foliage - is it any different than say switching from one film to another, ie velvia vs kodachrome? Or is it more like a yellow green turning to a blue green?

 

Tom

[Kent10D]

The color shifts in the foliage - is it any different than say switching from one film to another, ie velvia vs kodachrome? Or is it more like a yellow green turning to a blue green?

 

In addition to green-green foliage appearing as more of an olive green, I have actually experienced green leaves turning dark red when shot without an IR filter (and not because of the seasons ). For some reason this seems to happen more with plants growing near water. I don't know whether that's because of the type of plant involved, or the IR "differential" between the plants and the nearby water, but it has proven to be repeatable by both myself and another friend who is also an M8 user.

[cliffordjim]

The color shifts in the foliage - is it any different than say switching from one film to another, ie velvia vs kodachrome? Or is it more like a yellow green turning to a blue green?

 

Tom

 

I thought an example might be helpful. These 2 photos were taken 20 seconds apart with a 50mm Summmicron lens. The first with the Leica IR cut filter and the second without. The M8 was set to Lens Detection OFF. No color manipulation at all in post processing.

 

I find I must use the filters to get "correct" colors. Indoors with tungsten light also has its own problems without the IR cut filter. You will detect a reddish hue around the lights.

 

I strongly suggest using the filters.

 

-Jim

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[carstenw]

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Foliage and skin.

[luigi bertolotti]

My personal experience is :

 

- Nature greens (trees, meadows, snd so) are always a little better with the filters, expecially, seems to me, in diffuse daylight (cloudy, not direct strong sunrays)

 

- Colors "in the blues" are not affected, BUT the blue synthetics fabrics, and only they, are of a TERRIBLE velvet without the filter : recently, I took a family shot of 2 daughters of mine in natural light: one with blue jeans (cotton) the other with synthetic trousers of similar hue... changed the lens but didn't transfer the filter... I laughed a lot when saw the RAW...

 

- Skin in natural light HAS something different with and without. but I'm uncertain about which is the most "real" rendering... is not a question of "false" color... something more subtle.

[Nitnaros]

The color shifts in the foliage - is it any different than say switching from one film to another, ie velvia vs kodachrome? Or is it more like a yellow green turning to a blue green?

 

I thought an example might be helpful. These 2 photos were taken 20 seconds apart with a 50mm Summmicron lens. The first with the Leica IR cut filter and the second without. The M8 was set to Lens Detection OFF. No color manipulation at all in post processing.

 

I find I must use the filters to get "correct" colors. Indoors with tungsten light also has its own problems without the IR cut filter. You will detect a reddish hue around the lights.

 

I strongly suggest using the filters.

 

-Jim

 

 

 

My experience is identical to Jim's two example shots above:

 

Foliage and grass come out *way* to yellowish without the use of an IR-cut filter.

Without a filter, I need to set color temperature in Aperture for daylight shots with sunlight to about 4600K in white balance, instead of the 5800K (or similar) I would normally use. This makes the green color of grass look much better, but then the sky gets too greenish.

 

Is anybody aware of specific IR-cut filter tuned profiles for M8 raw processing?

RawDeveloper was mentioning such profiles earlier this year, but the June release notes do not mention anything with respect to new M8 profiles.

 

Peter

[jaapv]

You'll also notice that the shot with filter shows better detail. This is because the unsharp IR overlaid image is removed.

[marknorton]

Leica - even now in their filter instruction leaflet - still major on the black artificial fabrics but foliage and skin also reflect IR. Without a filter, people can look like they've been on a bottle of hootch a day since they were 12.

 

Jaap's comment is correct too. An out of focus IR induced fuzz overlays the visible light image and affects the overall image.

[grober]

Another take on this discussion: oh, oh . . . now that I've switched to shooting 100% with IR-filtered M8s, I'd better sell off all my non-IR filters -- and that's a bunch! -- before the market completely tanks.

 

-g

[lars_bergquist]

The effects of IR being as pervasive as they are, it is strange that Leica imagined that they would be important only in a few odd cases. It would seem that they tested for color reproduction in the lab only, on targets without significant IR reflectance, on the theory that such tests would be more "controlled" and therefore more reliable.

 

Reality is indeed an ugly thing, but there's one thing you can say for it: It is real ...

 

The old man from the Age of Real Life Photography

[jaapv]

Another take on this discussion: oh, oh . . . now that I've switched to shooting 100% with IR-filtered M8s, I'd better sell off all my non-IR filters -- and that's a bunch! -- before the market completely tanks.

 

-g

 

You can keep your polfilter, it should be used stacked on the IR filter anyway.

[stunsworth]

Lars, I think it's more likely that they were aware of the problem but were looking for an acceptable hardware solution prior to the camera's release that wasn't in the event forthcoming.

[Printmaker]

Thanks for your input. The examples help. Like I said, I've either been pointing my camera out to sea or photographing people with darker complexions. In either case, nothing seemed too wrong with the colors (other than purple clothed police). I guess its time to order a 28mm Zeiss bayonet for my 21. In the mean time, I'll try cornerfix.

 

Thanks again!

 

Tom

[Pedro]

The filter clearly delivers better color results but is it useful to photograph in B&W?

 

I am waiting for my filters and B&W could be a way out...

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Leica - even now in their filter instruction leaflet - still major on the black artificial fabrics but foliage and skin also reflect IR. Without a filter, people can look like they've been on a bottle of hootch a day since they were 12.

 

Jaap's comment is correct too. An out of focus IR induced fuzz overlays the visible light image and affects the overall image.

 

Been telling that to Leica all along

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[Hacker]

My boy's light grey shirt has turned magenta. I'm still waiting for the filters from Solms, and a reply after 2 weeks is that they are out of stock. When they have stock, they will inform me:

 

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Stephen your going to need more than 2 . Just looking at your lenses you need 2 55mm, 1 49mm, 2 46mm . Popflash has 55mm in stock right now. i won't shoot without the IR filters , have one on every lens.