Printing / Post processing issues

[LocalHero1953]

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1 minute ago, multimixer said:

@LocalHero1953 Well, thats also a thought. My fear here is, that the printer I could afford will produce worse prints than a photo lab that is using a professional printer. After seeing what I got, I'm not so sure anymore, so I'll maybe start looking for a printer as well.

I want first to narrow down the reasons that caused the results, basically answering the question if the problem is my post processing or the printing way (printer, technique whatever).

Am I right in my assumption, that a M9 SOOC B&W image, with all jpeg settings in camera set to "standard" should print ok, meaning without any artefacts, false colours etc ?

I haven't commented on other aspects of processing because I use Lightroom, not Capture One.

Assuming Capture One knows your image is a monochrome one and exports it as such, the false colour is clearly a problem with the printer, not your processing. With regard to the 'halos', if the image looked OK on screen to you, then it's possible the printer is adding sharpening to your image - the sort of thing they might do if they were printing anyone's holiday snaps.

IF you set all your settings to 'neutral' and IF the printer added no sharpening and IF the printer could print in true black & white, then I would expect you to get back a print that did not look over-processed or with colour artifacts, but it might look just plain dull. Some enhancement of sharpness and contrast, and white/black point setting is usually needed for printing; this comes down to experience on your part, and whether you and your print company are using the same ICC profile. In the same way as you calibrate your monitor, the printer and paper combination should be calibrated. Professional printers should be able to tell you what ICC profile they would use, so you can do a 'soft proof' on screen as a preliminary check. Other print companies will work with you with test prints, allowing you to adjust your processing. Frankly I would much rather do this myself on my own printer at home, but not everyone feels the same way.

[multimixer]

@LocalHero1953 Thank you for the very interresting input.

Much of all this is new o me, like eg that a printer can add extra sharpening. I'm almost convinced that they used their "snapshot" process for my images. Not that I have any high artistic expectations or that I believe my shots are any kind of art, I still want my images to look nice on paper, like I was used to, when sending my films in some 25 years ago.

Its true, I recently re-discovered photography as a hobby. When I sent my recent photos for printing to that lab, telling them that this is a trial for colours etc in order to decide about larger prints and check my adjustments, I thought they know what they are doing since they didn't ask any further question, like what type of printing I need etc

I decided to give up with the photo lab that I used and I'll visit an other photo lab this afternoon, knowing better now what to ask and what to look for.

And, I already took a look at some printers online, not so expensive finally and since I don't plan to print 1000's of images per day, the cost per image and ink etc aren't that important either

[Jeff S]

Excellent 'professional' (for consumers) printers are very reasonably priced...under $1k after routine discounts by either the dealer, the manufacturer or both. Check the manufacturer website (e.g., Epson) for rebates.  Much like the razor/razor blade business model, their margins are based on the inks; the machines are sunk costs.

Epson and Canon both make terrific printers, and there are many related discussions in the Digital Post Processing part of the forum.  I use the Epson P800, a 17 inch printer, which has been superseded by the P900 (smaller footprint and reduced ink capacity, but separate channels for matte and photo black inks).  The Canon Pro 1000 is a comparable printer, which some prefer due to user replaceable print heads.  Many pros and cons, but each can produce wonderful b/w or color prints with a disciplined workflow.  Like any part of photography, there's a learning curve; not plug and play.  But, once you experience the full capabilities of printing on your own, you'll wonder why you outsourced (unless of course you need huge prints beyond 17" on one side). I don't recommend starting with any printer beyond 17", and IMO the 13" versions are too restrictive for both print size and ink cartridge capacity.

Jeff

Edited December 16, 2021 by Jeff S

[Camaro5]

One thing I noticed is that your clarity seems awfully high.  Is there a reason for that?  Clarity and texture (structure) will add contrast.  If you are pushing those up and also adding sharpening that will negatively impact your image.  

I don't know if your print lab has this, but I got the ICC profile of the paper (Hannemuele Baryta) and printer (Canon 2000) my shop uses and embed that into each photo I send them.  When you do a soft proofing it will show if there are differences in the colors and/or exposure.  I was having problems with getting a color cast on my prints but since adding the ICC profile they now come back perfect.   This is with Lightroom & Photoshop, though.  I would imagine that your program probably has something similar.  

[multimixer]

@Camaro5 , thank you for your comment.

I'm very well aware, now, that the issue is caused my Clarity and sharpening in combination probably with a poor printing.

There is no particular reason for that sharpening, as said, for some sharpening steps I wasn't even aware they are happening

I don't know if the clarity/sharpening settings are "awfully high", you can see the settings for the both sample images at the beginning of the topic. Would you consider them as "awfully high", I don't know.

Is there any absolute number, say 20 or 50 or 150 or whatever, where one could say that this is the maximum, anything higher is too much ? Or do you judge by eye ? Are there any particular signs to look for in order to find where the limits are ?

[Jeff S]

Multimixer, I wonder if you missed my post #23 above, as you’ve personally responded to each and every other comment in this discussion. Printing on your own is a way to control all of the issues discussed here, but that requires not just an understanding of the tools involved (there are excellent tutorials, books and videos for every PP software), but especially a good eye and judgment, which is true of every aspect of photography.  Deciding when, where and to what degree to apply the tools is the hard, and important, part.  That takes time, and often a workshop, which can provide personal feedback, can help.  
 

Jeff

Edited December 22, 2021 by Jeff S

[multimixer]

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@Jeff S , well yes, I overlooked your post, I'm sorry for this

I already took a - virtual - look at printers, staring to familiarise my self with what makes a good printer. The 17" printers may be a mit "too much" for me since I don't plan to print that big and that much, so I checked the 13" printers, where I found 2 contenders, the canon pro-300 and the epson sc-p700. I need to dive more into that, they are not available in stores here, so it will be a online purchase.

What I realised now is, that such a printer can produce prints equal - if not better - that one I'm getting from a pedestrian photo lab, I was not aware of that.

Sure there is a learning curve involved and I don't expect all of my questions to be answered in one forum post, but thats something I enjoy. There is no stress involved, its purely a hobby for me, I don't "have" to deliver any results to anyone, its only for me. And the idea to produce something for A to Z, from looking at something while passing by till a nice photo hanging on the wall, thats very tempting. Not much unlike to what I'm doing at my work, where all starts from an idea and a blank computer screen and results in a internet application used by a good number of people.

In the meantime, I visited an other photo lab, where I think I found a place with people really passionate about what they do. Starting from exotic things, like enlarging negatives on photosensitiv silk, till the really nice prints hanging on their walls, the variety of papers to print on, the time they took for me to explain things etc etc, makes me believe that I found the right place, not only to print my shy photos but also to learn in the process.

Now I am at the stage with them, that I sent hem a couple of my "problematic" photos in jpeg, tiff and DNG, they re-processed the DNG's a and are going to print it all to see what's going on. then we'll see what to do further. For the tiff format I followed @Gerbssuggestion (post #15) and increased the pixels per inch till I got to the size I need. 

I'm expecting the results today, very anxious, and will post the conclusions to here

 

[P1505]

I think it’s worth adding that almost all of us experienced print regret. With the colours failing to impress and the exposure seeming off.

Thats just how prints are, reflected light and all that. A standard on paper print will never look like it does on a bright backlit screen.

The biggest and a cheap win is monitor calibration. £100 Spyder X and a print shop that’ll give you profiles is a starting point.

Once you’ve got that working and are confident in what you’ll get back, you can start to train your eye with regards to sharpening etc.

[leica dream]

Epson Print Layout  looks most interesting but reading details it looks like it will work only with Epson P series printers. I always have problems with colours printing.

I use Epson but not P series so has anybody tried Epson Print Layout with other Epsons.......or is there an alternative for other epsons.

[leica dream]

Yes, I have experimented and it works fine on my other Epson printer.