Entering M world?

[LikameLeica]

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I looking for some perspective from M owners that are also Leica SL owners.  I entered the Leica world back with the original Leica Q, coming from many years with Canon DSLR.   I loved the “Leica look” as well as the ergonomics so much that I jumped all in with Leica SL system including a couple native SL lenses, and several M lenses that I love using with the Leica SL.  I have also upgraded to the SL2 and SL2S.   The lure of the range finder has always been there and I am trying to decide if I would like the M experience or would the optical range finder frustrate me coming from the amazing EVF on SL system.  What attracts me is the experience, simple design, smaller body.  Thinking that my SL system would be my primary for landscape, but the M would be my everyday carry camera for street, exploration, hikes, night out, etc.  I know that this question is really subjective, but interested in any opinions/thoughts.  Also any thoughts on how I can maybe test the M system before jumping all the way in.   I was thinking of the Leica M10R black paint edition so that it is special edition that may be better long term value.  
 

Thoughts?

[Kwesi]

Hi,

I wouldn't worry about longterm value of the M10R. Being digital, technology will render it obsolete before it becomes a collector's item. That being said I think your satisfaction with the M system will come down to how comfortable you are with a manual focus only system.

[Sailronin]

Get an old M2 or better yet an M4 and shoot film to test the waters with the M system.  You'll always be able to sell it for what you paid (or better) as opposed to the "digital rot" price cliff on all digital cameras as newer models are released.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Sailronin

[Jeff S]

Various ways to try…demo from a dealer, buy used from a dealer with return/trade/sale policy, or rent…

https://www.lensrentals.com/rent/photo/leica/cameras/rangefinders

Jeff

[lanetomlane]

I've been using M's since the late sixties when I bought a secondhand Double Wind M3 (before that I had a 111a). In the nineties I had a couple of M6's before going digital with the M8, M9 and lastly the M10. When the SL (Type 601) came out I bought that intending to use it just with M lenses. However, I heard such good reports of the 24-90mm Vario-Elamrit that I bought one. It was so good I followed up with the 16-35 and 90-280. When we went away I always took the SL (I'm one who doesn't worry about weight, I just want the best images I can get) but as soon as we got home I always had to go out with the M, as I felt that to be the creative tool.

I mainly use the SL and SL2 (I'll never sell the original SL as I think it's a great camera) for landscape and the M's for street and every day photography. I believe there is room for both as they compliment each other well and give the photographer satisfaction in different ways.

Many images from both cameras can be found on my website.

https://photographybytomlane.com

[Pixeleater]

lanetomlane, I enjoyed viewing your website photos and your sense of humor is well represented, as are your Photoshop skills.

[LBJ2]

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On 11/12/2021 at 4:40 PM, LikameLeica said:

I looking for some perspective from M owners that are also Leica SL owners.  I entered the Leica world back with the original Leica Q, coming from many years with Canon DSLR.   I loved the “Leica look” as well as the ergonomics so much that I jumped all in with Leica SL system including a couple native SL lenses, and several M lenses that I love using with the Leica SL.  I have also upgraded to the SL2 and SL2S.   The lure of the range finder has always been there and I am trying to decide if I would like the M experience or would the optical range finder frustrate me coming from the amazing EVF on SL system.  What attracts me is the experience, simple design, smaller body.  Thinking that my SL system would be my primary for landscape, but the M would be my everyday carry camera for street, exploration, hikes, night out, etc.  I know that this question is really subjective, but interested in any opinions/thoughts.  Also any thoughts on how I can maybe test the M system before jumping all the way in.   I was thinking of the Leica M10R black paint edition so that it is special edition that may be better long term value.  
 

Thoughts?

Go for it! I started with the M10, my first Rangefinder, then more recently upgraded to the M10-R and added the SL2. Both M and now SL systems have turned out the be a good choice for me to include a lot of fun learning both. As you noted, two very different systems so be prepared to put in some practice time with the Rangefinder. Swapping my tiny Leica M lenses between these two cameras is also another major bonus IMO.  

[fenykepesz]

TomLane, i also enjoyed, like others here, your photography collection, and especially your b&w pictures !  now, unless you use a monochrome, how do you convert from color to b&w, what tools do you use, how does your processing pipeline look in detail ?  i am very much fond of learning more about color2grey tools, and may even think about founding some sort of forum to discuss this topic of c2g techniques, either for still photography or for motion picture film.  i myself use in general gimp/gegl/c2g as a rather black-box approach, and then add some manual contrast tweaks as needed.

[Herr Barnack]

@LikameLeica As Jeff S suggested, try to rent an M10 and a lens for a few days or a week to see if the M camera design is a good fit for you.  

A digital M is worlds apart from the way a DSLR camera operates but in my experience, the M camera design and layout are not at all difficult to become accustomed to.

 

[lanetomlane]

12 hours ago, fenykepesz said:

TomLane, i also enjoyed, like others here, your photography collection, and especially your b&w pictures !  now, unless you use a monochrome, how do you convert from color to b&w, what tools do you use, how does your processing pipeline look in detail ?  i am very much fond of learning more about color2grey tools, and may even think about founding some sort of forum to discuss this topic of c2g techniques, either for still photography or for motion picture film.  i myself use in general gimp/gegl/c2g as a rather black-box approach, and then add some manual contrast tweaks as needed.

Many thanks for your kind words regarding my website. I do use the M9 Monochrom but a lot of my images are conversions from colour files. I import the DNG images into Lightroom and rather than converting them straight to B&W I process them in colour. Usually reducing the highlights, increasing the shadows and making sure I have a good black and a good white. I will also use the "dodge" wand and circle tool to adjust parts of the file I think may need attention. If once I have the colour image to my liking and think it has potential as a monochrome image, I make a virtual copy and then convert that to Black & White. I then "tweek" the file to my liking, usually having to add more contrast and maybe playing with the Black and White sliders to give the image punch. I used to use Silverefex Pro 2 but over the last six months or so I'm doing nearly everything in Lightroom, including experimenting with their filters.

To me, a good monochrome image must contain a good White and a good Black. When I used to print in the Darkroom I had a piece of paper I had exposed for hours and then developed to make sure I had the perfect Black and an unexposed piece of paper to make sure I had the perfect White; now of course, I just use the histogram.

Hope this makes sense and is of interest.

 

Best regards, Tom

[fenykepesz]

interesting, Tom, thank you for your comments and your summary about the processes you make use of in your c2g conversion flow.

in terms of the ratio of manual vs non-manual effort put into a work i prefer to go with the latter, and i guess it's for me in this respect a mix of pragmatism (minimize my time, let an automated algorithm doing the job), repeatability (software settings determine outcome), philosophy (minimizing my own bias & inconsistent influence on resulting image outcome), and, crucially, a realization that such a c2g conversion needs to happen separately and specifically on a pixel-by-pixel basis as the physical (light) and content-related conditions vary wildly for each single element in a picture.  that's why i am so fond of this GIMP/GEGL/c2g tool, working myself in image processing, which quasi auto-magically does its job, with minimal human input.  i am not aware of a similar tool, free or commercial, in any software package - but i may very well be wrong, and open to learn and to discussions.  please update me !

i assume it would help start doing some systematic comparisons between the various c2g approaches.  here a fairly old article about c2g, albeit used for color contrast enhancement, describes a bit the technique, and then this one here too.  i guess i deviate here a bit off-topic, sorry about that...

[LikameLeica]

 

On 11/15/2021 at 4:22 PM, Herr Barnack said:

@LikameLeica As Jeff S suggested, try to rent an M10 and a lens for a few days or a week to see if the M camera design is a good fit for you.  

A digital M is worlds apart from the way a DSLR camera operates but in my experience, the M camera design and layout are not at all difficult to become accustomed to.

 

Thank you everyone for the feedback and comments.  This weekend I went out with my SL2-S and 2 M lenses (50 summilux and 35 summilux).  I truly enjoy the shooting experience with the SL2-S with the EVF, so maybe I will just keep dreaming about the idea of the M.  I like the idea of renting an M, but  wish Leica did a loaner program for the M like they have done for the SL in the past.  Thanks again and like others have said , Tom your pictures are fantastic!!

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, LikameLeica said:

 

 I like the idea of renting an M, but  wish Leica did a loaner program for the M like they have done for the SL in the past.  

Some dealers will do this informally, or at least allow afternoon demo around store area using your SD card.

Jeff

[Max EPR]

I was in the exact same situation as LikameLeica. Started with a Q2, then the SL2. Then purchased a M10. The M10 was the hardest of the 3 to learn how to use properly. The mistakes I made coming from SL lenses and even the Q2 was not buying Summilux and Summarit M lenses from the beginning.  I like the sharpest photos possible and I was just never happy with M Summicrons. The M10 has taught me more how to operate all cameras better. The M10 is the camera I like to use the most often for 35mm and 50mm photography. In summary: The SL camera and SL lenses take the sharpest photos. The Q2 takes great photos; is easy to use; light weight, but the 28mm lens is not my favorite focal length. The M10 is the most fun to use and I am satisfied with Summilux and Summarit lenses. The M10 is not a camera to hand somebody to take a group photo unless they know how to operate an M10. The Q2 and SL2 can easily be used by anyone. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Max EPR

[LikameLeica]

2 hours ago, Max EPR said:

I was in the exact same situation as LikameLeica. Started with a Q2, then the SL2. Then purchased a M10. The M10 was the hardest of the 3 to learn how to use properly. The mistakes I made coming from SL lenses and even the Q2 was not buying Summilux and Summarit M lenses from the beginning.  I like the sharpest photos possible and I was just never happy with M Summicrons. The M10 has taught me more how to operate all cameras better. The M10 is the camera I like to use the most often for 35mm and 50mm photography. In summary: The SL camera and SL lenses take the sharpest photos. The Q2 takes great photos; is easy to use; light weight, but the 28mm lens is not my favorite focal length. The M10 is the most fun to use and I am satisfied with Summilux and Summarit lenses. The M10 is not a camera to hand somebody to take a group photo unless they know how to operate an M10. The Q2 and SL2 can easily be used by anyone. 

Thanks for your insights and helps validate what I think I already knew.  The M in its simplistic form is all about the photographic experience and coupled with the amazing M glass had the unique and desirable Leica look.  I think it’s not a matter of “if” but “when” do I take the plunge.  

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, Max EPR said:

The mistakes I made coming from SL lenses and even the Q2 was not buying Summilux and Summarit M lenses from the beginning.  I like the sharpest photos possible and I was just never happy with M Summicrons. 

Sharpness is a vague term. And there are many generations of Summicron and Summilux M lenses, each with different rendering attributes. But some of the highest performing M lenses, as shown via MTF chart at least, are the 35 and 50 APO Summicrons.  
 

Jeff

[mujk]

On 11/12/2021 at 11:40 PM, LikameLeica said:

I looking for some perspective from M owners that are also Leica SL owners.  I entered the Leica world back with the original Leica Q, coming from many years with Canon DSLR.   I loved the “Leica look” as well as the ergonomics so much that I jumped all in with Leica SL system including a couple native SL lenses, and several M lenses that I love using with the Leica SL.  I have also upgraded to the SL2 and SL2S.   The lure of the range finder has always been there and I am trying to decide if I would like the M experience or would the optical range finder frustrate me coming from the amazing EVF on SL system.  What attracts me is the experience, simple design, smaller body.  Thinking that my SL system would be my primary for landscape, but the M would be my everyday carry camera for street, exploration, hikes, night out, etc.  I know that this question is really subjective, but interested in any opinions/thoughts.  Also any thoughts on how I can maybe test the M system before jumping all the way in.   I was thinking of the Leica M10R black paint edition so that it is special edition that may be better long term value.  
 

Thoughts?

Depends so much on where you come from. If you have never used a rangefinder before nor a fully manual camera, you may initially have a tough time with a Leica M. I would as well suggest trying one out first at a lower initial cost (loaner, used film or digital M), as suggested in some other posts. If I were to start my M journey now, I might go with a used M9 with the new sensor (still a fantastic camera if you can find one) and then sell it if I didn't like the experience.  Or, if ready to spend more money, a used standard M10 (I actually started with an ex-demo M6TTL back in 2005).