Summicron 35/2 8-element vs. Light Lens Lab 35/2 - a direct comparison

[Al Brown]

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I have done a run & gun comparison test of the original "late" 1969 8-element 35mm f/2 Summicron "the first" versus its clone, the Chinese "reverse engineered" Light Lens Lab 8-element 35mm f/2.

The test was done WIDE OPEN on a Leica M10-R. I have tested the center, edges and flare quality of both - three most important things a working photographer notes first.
Both lenses were in great (mint) condition, the RF of the test camera used was 100% accurate.
On all images below the 35 Leica lens is ABOVE or TO THE LEFT. The Chinese 35 LLL is BELOW or TO THE RIGHT. Conclusion follows after the samples.
The LLL was kindly provided to me by Jo Geier of Mint & Rare, EU's Light Lens Lab importer from Vienna, Austria.
Here are the subjects and the camera used:

 

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Edited November 12, 2021 by Al Brown

[Al Brown]

Here is the flare of both lenses (see which is which in the description above). It is virtually identical. The LLL is slightly warmer, but only to the trained eye. It truly was a reverse engineered feat.

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[Al Brown]

Here are the edges of both lenses wide open (see which is which in the description above). Time certainly takes its toll on the 35mm Leica Summicron.

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[Al Brown]

CONCLUSION:

The centre was virtually identical on both samples. Statistically irrelevant for this run and gun test.
The flares were highly comparable. The Chinese lens really is a pristine clone of the Leica Summicron.
The edges are the spots where the newer Chinese Light Lens Lab really shines. While retaining the slight glow and comma of its "ancestor", the sharpness falloff was minimal on the LLL sample of the 35mm lens. Time does take its toll and the much revered "original" Leica 35mm does show its age (still keeping up strongly though!!). The small Chinese company did a REMARKABLE job bringing this design to those who wish to get it at a (relatively) affordable price of 1199 euros including VAT (compared to 3500 euros and up for the M version of the 35mm Leica Summicron). In this scenario, the apprentice has surpassed the master.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Al Brown

[Charles Morgan]

 

A good test, thank you!

My V1 LLL8 is superb, and as I got it in the Rangefinder forum offer, I paid a fair bit less than 1200 Euros. And I got the name of my favourite Wagnerian heroine engraved on the front surround too!

 

 

[a5m]

Thanks for the comparison! Interesting timing since I just acquired a 35 Summicron 8 Element.

Perhaps it's confirmation bias but the Cron looks better especially in the flare shots. Definitely more distortion in the edges though.

For the price I can see the appeal but I'd personally still go for the original if possible.

[pippy]

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Very interesting to see how closely the LLL matches and in some areas, as you say Al, surpasses the performance of the 8 Element.

Thanks for taking the time do undertake the experiment and posting the photographs.

Philip.

[shirubadanieru]

I just bought this lens today in black paint and it looks beautiful. Build quality I’d say it feels even better than the original 8e, since the LLL is all brass, whereas the 8e is not. 

Other difference, the 8e aperture is full stops whereas the LLL is half-stops. Other than that, the design is 100% exactly the same. If Leica ever makes a remake of the 8e or summaron f2.8 it will look exactly like this. 

Here’s a picture of the lens on my M9-P and my first picture with it

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[shirubadanieru]

Shot at f2 or f2.8 (I forget now lol) 

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[shirubadanieru]

Shot wide open. flare and glow is there like the original and the round bokeh too 💯

 

 

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[shirubadanieru]

And here are some more examples of bokeh and flare. 
My overall conclusion: The LLL lens flares slightly less than the 8e, but when it does flare it is similar to the 8e flare (ie you really have to shoot against the sun for it to flare, whereas the 8e had more occasions in which flare would appear). The Bokeh balls are identical to the 8e bokeh balls, but if I remember correctly the 8e had a bit more background blur than the LLL (nothing scientific, just overall observations from having used both lenses). 

 

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[pippy]

On 11/12/2021 at 5:27 PM, Al Brown said:

CONCLUSION:

...The Chinese lens really is a pristine clone of the Leica Summicron...

Having Hummed-and-Haw'd about this lens for the last month or so I finally decided to get one and managed to pick one up yesterday.

Not had any time to shoot with it apart from when I luncheoned after 'the collection' but having just shot off a few frames in direct comparison not with a Leica '8 E' but with a '74 v2 Summilux I'm astonished by how similar it is in performance to the latter lens. In all respects the results from this pairing from (f2.8 down) seems to parallel Al's results in that the LLL is marginally sharper at the edges and has a tad more contrast but other than that? Extraordinarily similar.

Even at f2 the only real 'giveaway' as to which image was snapped using which lens was the absence of sunstars with the LLL (for obvious reasons!).

Mine is the Black Paint version. Came 'Used' ('Unused'? Possibly ex-demo? It's in mint condition) with all the 'case-candy' and the (unused) matching (B-P) LLL IROOA hood.

Hoping to get some decent weather soon so I can give it a proper shakedown. If, however, tomorrow is an 'At Home' then I might just (take the required gratuitous snap of it and) give it some exercise hereabouts.

One thing that I'd be interested to know more about is to do with the model-designation engraving. Most examples I've seen have the V2LC code. One member here has mentioned that his is a V1LC. Mine is engraved V6LC. Information about any possible difference between batches(?) / versions(?) is pretty much non-existent and what there is seems to be more in the way of hearsay than established fact. The following is typical of a few posts I've seen when trying to get to the bottom of the matter (and, until I know better, I will take the content with a healthy pinch of scepticism);

"From what I understand, V1LC and V2LC had quality control issues and varying tolerances from sample to sample. I believe V3LC and up they really got their act together, with minor improvements all the way to either V4LC or V5LC."

LLL don't seem to have a Web Presence - which is a bit odd nowadays - so it would appear tricky to obtain factual info from the manufacturer. Anyone here have anything more solid to go on? I, for one, have never heard anyone here have any issues whatsoever so might it be that the letters/numbers simply refer to different releases?

Philip.

Edited January 6, 2022 by pippy

[Al Brown]

27 minutes ago, pippy said:

so it would appear tricky to obtain factual info from the manufacturer.

Not just tricky to obtain info, apparently even trickier to be a distributor in EU.

[shirubadanieru]

7 hours ago, pippy said:

Having Hummed-and-Haw'd about this lens for the last month or so I finally decided to get one and managed to pick one up yesterday.

Not had any time to shoot with it apart from when I luncheoned after 'the collection' but having just shot off a few frames in direct comparison not with a Leica '8 E' but with a '74 v2 Summilux I'm astonished by how similar it is in performance to the latter lens. In all respects the results from this pairing from (f2.8 down) seems to parallel Al's results in that the LLL is marginally sharper at the edges and has a tad more contrast but other than that? Extraordinarily similar.

Even at f2 the only real 'giveaway' as to which image was snapped using which lens was the absence of sunstars with the LLL (for obvious reasons!).

Mine is the Black Paint version. Came 'Used' ('Unused'? Possibly ex-demo? It's in mint condition) with all the 'case-candy' and the (unused) matching (B-P) LLL IROOA hood.

Hoping to get some decent weather soon so I can give it a proper shakedown. If, however, tomorrow is an 'At Home' then I might just (take the required gratuitous snap of it and) give it some exercise hereabouts.

One thing that I'd be interested to know more about is to do with the model-designation engraving. Most examples I've seen have the V2LC code. One member here has mentioned that his is a V1LC. Mine is engraved V6LC. Information about any possible difference between batches(?) / versions(?) is pretty much non-existent and what there is seems to be more in the way of hearsay than established fact. The following is typical of a few posts I've seen when trying to get to the bottom of the matter (and, until I know better, I will take the content with a healthy pinch of scepticism);

"From what I understand, V1LC and V2LC had quality control issues and varying tolerances from sample to sample. I believe V3LC and up they really got their act together, with minor improvements all the way to either V4LC or V5LC."

LLL don't seem to have a Web Presence - which is a bit odd nowadays - so it would appear tricky to obtain factual info from the manufacturer. Anyone here have anything more solid to go on? I, for one, have never heard anyone here have any issues whatsoever so might it be that the letters/numbers simply refer to different releases?

Philip.

Hi Philip, from what I know is that the V1 is kinda like a prototype / early adopters batch. Actually I believe the coating / spacing between aperture was changed based on VLC1 owners feedback to more closely replicate the 8e rendering. V2 was the next batch, and although I haven’t personally heard any build quality issues, this was their first lens so there might have been some learning curve as they were setting up their manufacturing to meet the demand. From there on the versions are simply batches of 999 lenses each. Mine is V6. Also my understanding is that L is for Lead glass (until they run out of it) and C is for single coating, but if these are rumors or facts it’s hard to tell, especially regarding the lead glass. By the way, mapcamera here in Japan, probably the biggest Leica dealer, sells the V6 lens in their stores, including all accessories. 

PS - I’m loving the Elcan replica as well, the bokeh is beautiful and the build quality is as good as the 8e replica.

[shirubadanieru]

Hi everyone, got to shoot the 8e black chrome version and LLL black paint V6 side by side at F2, shot against the sun to see how they’d flare. You can see that the rendering / flare shape / bokeh is almost impossible to distinguish, but the color of the flare is different? Interesting! 

Nothing scientific, just shooting them side by side at similar angles, apply same edit settings to the raw file, export and that’s it. The first two shot are LLL 8 elements, the other two are the original 8 elements.

 

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[pippy]

8 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

...my understanding is that L is for Lead glass (until they run out of it) and C is for single coating, but if these are rumors or facts it’s hard to tell, especially regarding the lead glass...

Thanks very much for the posts, shirubadanieru; most interesting!

As far as the passage quoted above is concerned I wonder if, instead of designating 'Lead; Coated', the LC designates 'Lead Crystal'? I have read that LLL has been striving to obtain what has been termed (on the web) 'Flint Glass' for their elements and this type of glass is described (on wikipedia) as being;

"Traditionally, flint glasses were lead glasses containing around 4–60% Lead Oxide..."

Cross-checking with Lead Glass we find;

"Lead glass contains typically 18–40% Lead Oxide (PbO), while modern lead crystal, historically also known as flint glass due to the original silica source, contains a minimum of 24% PbO......Lead glass is often desirable for a variety of uses due to its clarity.......The addition of lead oxide to glass raises its refractive index......The attractive optical properties of lead glass result from the high content of lead.....The brilliance of lead crystal relies on the high refractive index caused by the lead content..."

"...This heightened refractive index also correlates with increased dispersion, which measures the degree to which a medium separates light into its component spectra, as in a prism......The high refractive index is useful for lens-making, since a given focal length can be achieved with a thinner lens. However, the dispersion must be corrected by other components of the lens system if it is to be achromatic..."

Due to considerable health risks (resulting in lead poisoning) the use of Lead Glass to make Crystal tableware has, unsurprisingly, all but disappeared and supplies of the material are now relatively uncommon which may explain the theory that LLL have been finding some difficulties when trying to source glass-types with similar optical qualities to those used in the manufacture of the original 8E lenses back in the late '50s and '60s.

Just a thought!

Philip.

Edited January 7, 2022 by pippy

[shirubadanieru]

17 minutes ago, pippy said:

Thanks very much for the posts, shirubadanieru; most interesting!

As far as the passage quoted above is concerned I wonder if, instead of designating 'Lead; Coated', the LC designates 'Lead Crystal'? I have read that LLL has been striving to obtain what has been termed (on the web) 'Flint Glass' for their elements and this type of glass is described (on wikipedia) as being;

"Traditionally, flint glasses were lead glasses containing around 4–60% Lead Oxide..."

Cross-checking with Lead Glass we find;

"Lead glass contains typically 18–40% Lead Oxide (PbO), while modern lead crystal, historically also known as flint glass due to the original silica source, contains a minimum of 24% PbO......Lead glass is often desirable for a variety of uses due to its clarity.......The addition of lead oxide to glass raises its refractive index......The attractive optical properties of lead glass result from the high content of lead.....The brilliance of lead crystal relies on the high refractive index caused by the lead content..."

"...This heightened refractive index also correlates with increased dispersion, which measures the degree to which a medium separates light into its component spectra, as in a prism......The high refractive index is useful for lens-making, since a given focal length can be achieved with a thinner lens. However, the dispersion must be corrected by other components of the lens system if it is to be achromatic..."

Due to considerable health risks (resulting in lead poisoning) the use of Lead Glass to make Crystal tableware has, unsurprisingly, all but disappeared and supplies of the material are now relatively uncommon which may explain the theory that LLL have been finding some difficulties when trying to source glass-types with similar optical qualities to those used in the manufacture of the original 8E lenses back in the late '50s and '60s.

Just a thought!

Philip.

this is very interesting!! thank you for researching & sharing Philip!

[shirubadanieru]

Sharing rendering on film. 

Tri-X 400 shot at f2 or 2.8

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[shirubadanieru]

& now color, I believe it's colorplus 200

first shot f2, the other two at f5.6 or 8

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pippy]

Just for a bit of fun here is a pair of snaps showing my new arrival. Each has been posted elsewhere but this does seem to be the most fitting thread for the thing and I did suggest I might show some pics here back in post #12 so here she is;

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I'm really hoping the weather will clear up over the weekend as I'm rather keen to get out and about with the little gem.

Philip.

Edited January 7, 2022 by pippy