Problem with Bulb Setting on M10 with highest ISO

[MikeMyers]

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I was trying to get some photos of the Milky Way Galaxy with my M10 (homework assignment), with (B)ulb shutter speed, and my first test shots came out fine after a few ISO and aperture adjustments.  On a whim, I wanted to see how the camera would react at the highest ISO I could select, and try after try, the shutter closed after 8 seconds.  Nothing seemed to fix this, but I had just taken a photo of the "Lucy launch" from Cape Canaveral minutes before, so I knew the "B" setting was working.  I dropped the ISO setting one click, and now the shutter stayed open for a bit longer.

My question is why the camera's shutter speed would care what ISO I selected?  Is this normal behavior, or a flaw in my M10, or a flaw in all M10's, or ?????

[a.noctilux]

Hello Mike,

Normal.

When you are in "B" setting, you can choose the shutter "speed" in seconds, push the front button a bit longer, then have a look at rear LCD, you would see the possible (depending on ISO) time settings, at a glance. Move the "time" with the rear wheel to choose.

 

I don't use this "B", for a while.

The time in seconds are available only from 100 to 6400 ISO, weird, but normal for what I know.

Edited October 17, 2021 by a.noctilux

[adan]

it may or may not be "a flaw," but it is an intentional limitation chosen by Leica.

The reason being that long exposures produce noise, and high ISOs also produce noise. So Leica doesn't want you using one on top of the other.

From Red Dot Camera:

Quote

Be aware that as you increase ISO, the longest exposure time decreases. This limitation is a safeguard against excessive image noise, as both longer exposures and higher ISO settings can contribute to noise and an overall decrease in image quality.

List of available "bulb/ISO" times here:

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2018/06/firmware-ver-2-4-5-0-for-leica-m10-released/

Edited October 17, 2021 by adan

[MikeMyers]

Thanks, @adan - when the time got longer as I decreased the ISO, I felt re-assured that nothing was "broken", but now I understand.  It would have been nice if an explanation was displayed on the rear screen, but that's OK - all is. well.  

(Is there a hidden list of things like this buried away in the camera, that can be accessed with a menu?)

[adan]

I do believe there is an object available called "The Instruction Manual."

https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M10-R/Downloads

A .pdf that one can carry on a 'phone - or one can order the printed version.

pp.80-81 covers the current subject.

[MikeMyers]

8 hours ago, adan said:

pp.80-81 covers the current subject.

Thanks, @adan.  It was 5:30am, and I didn't realize it was anything to look up - I was very surprised, and once I figured out that it changed when I changed the ISO, I suspected it was something about the camera I just didn't know about - and probably not a problem, so I went back to bed.

I have the instruction manual that came with the M10, and have read parts of it, probably about the same as what I read in the M8 manual, the basics on how to use the camera.

I bought "Leica M10 - The Expanded Guide" and have read it probably three times by now, if not four or five.  When I travel, I take it with me and re-re-re-read it, always finding something new.  I'm guilty of not reading the full instruction book, but I did get out the camera and the manual and worked my way through it to learn the basics, and how it was different from my M8.2.  I have also gone through every single choice in the menu, learning what things do, and which ones I need to know the most, and finally setting up my "Favorites" page.

I will look at pages 80-81 tomorrow, to see what it has to say, but as I see it, that's no excuse for not showing an "error" explanation on the rear screen when this happens.  What percent of Leica M10 users in this forum read this in the instruction manual?

 

Question - is there a good book all about the M10, of the same quality as the books I bought decades ago for my M3 and M2 cameras?  The book I bought isn't detailed as much as the older books.  I guess in today's world, that's the way things are - nobody reads instructions.

[MikeMyers]

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8 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

When you are in "B" setting, you can choose the shutter "speed" in seconds, push the front button a bit longer, then have a look at rear LCD, you would see the possible (depending on ISO) time settings, at a glance. Move the "time" with the rear wheel to choose.

I didn't know this either, but this was the first time I used "B".  It wouldn't have helped - I opened the shutter when the rocket carrying Lucy went up, and kept the shutter open until I was sure the rocket had moved beyond my image frame.

[a.noctilux]

B use of M10 is tricky 😉.

As long time storm photo fan, I had bad surprise with my new M10 (early 2017), I set to B then pushed the release, waiting for the lightning,

... but now I know what happened.

Sometimes the shutter suddenly closed, then nothing as the M10 took the long (= same number of seconds as the B ) 'nothing' black frame.

Happily, on the LCD the counting showed to tell me that why the shutter didn't fire.

[MikeMyers]

Perhaps Leica should provide a tool to turn this noise-prevention on/off?

From what you wrote, you probably never did get any lightning photos.  I thought this was only at high-ISO speeds, but maybe that's not the case.

 

20 hours ago, adan said:

I do believe there is an object available called "The Instruction Manual."

https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M10-R/Downloads

A .pdf that one can carry on a 'phone - or one can order the printed version.

pp.80-81 covers the current subject.

This leads to the manual for an M10-R, which I do not have.

I searched for a manual for the M10 and found this: https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M10/Downloads

This is for the M10R:  https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M10/Downloads

I copied the relevant page below.

 

I did find this in the "-R" manual, but I wouldn't have thought to download a newer manual for a different model of my camera.:

• B FUNCTION
• In setting B, the shutter remains open as long as the shutter button is held down (up to max. 16 min depending on ISO setting).

My opinion - had I read this a dozen times, I never would have expected my shutter to close unexpectedly after eight seconds.  I wonder if you might be the only person in this forum who is aware of this issue?  🙂   Maybe future manuals can be a little more descriptive, so silly people like me won't be surprised by this unexpected (by me) behavior.

 

Oh, added later - the obvious "fix" for my issue is for me to go to B&H Photo and order an M10-R.   🙂

 

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Edited October 18, 2021 by MikeMyers