Leica M8 colors

[Jamie Roberts]

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Do you mean that IR-cut filters don't oversaturate greens in grass and foliage?

 

I'm saying the "oversaturation" is more likely the result of RAW handling / profile than the filter in and of itself.

 

IOW, Let's say you have a profile or DNG colour matrix (or RAW settings) that are balanced for the sensor's extra IR, then naturally enough, the green component of that, conceptually, will be boosted to maintain neutrals. They have to be

 

If you then add a filter than cuts that extra magenta, well, yes: greens will be out of balance.

 

So depending on your workflow and preferences, you may or may not see the greens as oversaturated. But if you've been adjusting for the M8 without filters, then it's a fair bet you'll have to compensate when they're used. In some cases--like the famous black fabric case--the compensation will be "less" work, not more.

 

(I should add too, that both the generic IR an the original generic M8 C1 profile are a bit too green for my taste, but then, I don't really care about foliage; skin tones are what's important to me).

 

None of which is an indictment of the M8, BTW--all digital cameras have their "interpretation" in the RAW converter--inside the camera or not. I remember when the 1d2 came out with the original C1 profiles and a lot of pros screamed "we can't use these awful profiles." BTW--they were just absolutely awful

 

BTW2--Silkypix is a very good converter for giving you a gazillion colour choices quickly without really knowing what you're doing--it's very intuitive that way. This is a good thing, unless you want to immerse yourself in colour theory.

 

I think the fact it has a Kodak colour engine and builds on their years of colour interpretation expertise makes a big difference.

[lct]

Thank you Jamie but from my user point of view, the oversaturation in green grass and foliage is the result or the use of IR-cut filters as i don't get it when i work sans filter and then i don't need any special profile with my digicams so far.

In fact this oversaturation was one of the reasons why i dit not buy the M8 so as long as i don't want to be bothered by profiles looks like i'll have to wait for the M9 i'm afraid.

[innerimager]

Max- Very interesting and well done! I wonder if you have ever looked at Raw Developer, which also supports camera ICC profiles, and has several for the M8 with and without IR filters. I'd be very curious to see what you discover. Thanks....Peter

[Jamie Roberts]

Thank you Jamie but from my user point of view, the oversaturation in green grass and foliage is the result or the use of IR-cut filters as i don't get it when i work sans filter and then i don't need any special profile with my digicams so far.

In fact this oversaturation was one of the reasons why i dit not buy the M8 so as long as i don't want to be bothered by profiles looks like i'll have to wait for the M9 i'm afraid.

 

You're welcome, but I think you're in for some more disappointment.

 

It's not the filters that cause the problem. It's the way Leica makes a JPEG from the information (or suggests one from the DNG).

 

So if you don't like the M8's rendition, you're not likely to like the M9's either.

 

IOW, your desire to get something good "out of the camera" is prohibiting you from seeing what the camera is actually capable of creating.

 

It may be, I guess, that the M9 will be passable, though, where the M8 is not, from your perspective.

 

It's also entirely possible that Leica will re-tweak the JPEG colour entirely / DNG matrix entirely once they look more closely at WB )

[lct]

I use only raw Jamie and i've never felt the need to use a special profile so far so i don't lose the hope that Leica meet my simple requirements soon or late.

[dlw]

Max,

 

I am running on a Mac. ACR 4,1 is not available as a stand-alone application but is a plugin to either LR or CS3. I am not sure how one changes the ACR and loads the xmp file.

 

If you open a DMG file within Photoshop CS3 it will bring up the ACR interface. Then click on the extras menu within the settings pane and you can load the settings through the "Load Settings" menu option.

 

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[stunsworth]

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Ahh, so _that's_ where the 'Previous Conversion' button was hidden. I've been looking for that little monkey for a while <grin>

[Guest tummydoc]

 

So if you don't like the M8's rendition, you're not likely to like the M9's either.

 

 

Hopefully the M9 will include the cyan-vignetting correction even if the camera doesn't need IR filters, for those who will use it along with an M8

[barjohn]

dlw,

 

Thanks for showing me where to load the curves in the .xmp file. I find that it still need about a +30 on red to get the red in skin tones to not be overpowering. Any idea how to edit the .xmp to get it closer?

[dlw]

I think the KammaGamma folks can answer this better than I, but in my limited understanding of what's happening is that the XML file is changing the graph points as X,Y axis pairs. You can play around with the pairs and load subsequent files to see the results (saving as progressive versions of course, "ACR_gamma_correction_1.xmp, 2.xmp, etc.) and watch what's happening in the image and then adjust more and watch until you get a feel for the match up between the plot coordinates and the result and can get your files to a good starting point.

 

This is the hack at it until it works method, there's probably a more refined way to do this.

[elopezso]

John,

 

You mean -30 in red saturation, don't you? I do -15, not negative 30, and that works quite well for me.

 

Ed

[barjohn]

John,

 

You mean -30 in red saturation, don't you? I do -15, not negative 30, and that works quite well for me.

 

Ed

 

If you select the HSL/Grayscale tab in the ACR screen shown above and select Hue, then it require the red slider to be set to +30.

 

For Luminance it may be different.

[dlw]

I did a quick test and pulled out all the XML settings so you can see everything that would or could be hard coded.

 

For reference the line you are asking specifically about is:

<crs:HueAdjustmentRed>+30</crs:HueAdjustmentRed>

 

 

ACR_KammaGamma_full.xmp.txt

 

Note: you'll need to change the extension back to .xmp

[barjohn]

Thanks for the help. It still doesn't compare to C1 though it is better than the default curve.

 

Here is a crop of first C1 Beta 4, then ACR 4.1 with ACR Gama and Red Hue at +30 and finally ACR 4.1 default curves.

 

Note the differences in skin tone as well as detail sharpness and effect on moire. C1 was using Jamie's low sat profile and sharpening at 250 & radius 1.2.

 

Finally I have added a C1 with default sharpening same profile.

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[gwelland]

WOW - that's not subtle is it. VERY noticable color differences and that ACR moire is horrible!

[barjohn]

WOW - that's not subtle is it. VERY noticable color differences and that ACR moire is horrible!

 

Very true and here is Bibblepro 4.9.8e using Jamie's profile lo sat. I had to change exposure +.7 as for some reason it made the image very dark and I had to add fill.

 

I added another of C1 4 Beta same profile but a little more sharpening added.

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