40mm Cron / Rokkor buddies in 35/50

[grahamc]

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Hi Everyone 

I'm a big fan of the 40mm Rokkor and own the CLE version.  However, I also prefer having accurate frame-lines, so use it on my CLE and use 35s and 50s on my Leica bodies.  My copy is very sharp (across full aperture range) and also quite contrasty, but IMO it still delivers a beautiful character that I would consider classic or vintage versus modern lenses.  I'm really liking it for general street photography, I get really sharp results that have quite a punchy look .

In the 35mm FL I use the 35:2 v4 as my 35 'equivalent' ... it's actually neither quite as sharp nor quite as contrasty as my 40, but overall they are close enough.  Like the 40:2, the 35:2 4 is small and light.

I'm interested to get people's opinions on Leica 50mm options that renders most similarly to the 40mm.  Currently I own the 50mm Cron v3 but my copy is not particularly sharp and is also relatively low contrast compared to my 40:2 ....  So overall it doesn't deliver anywhere close to the same 'bite'.   I like it and will keep it for other purposes but do you think the Cron v4/v5 may be more similar to 40:2 ?  If so, I like the idea of the v4 tabbed.

Would be interested to hear thoughts or other options .

Generally, I tend to be happy playing around in the Mandler era for now but not completely averse to trying something a little more modern.  I have a hunch the 50:2 v4 could be what I'm looking for but please let me know what you think.

It can be a little disconcerting going out with my CLE and getting results I'm happier with than with my Leica, so obviously this is something I need to rectify ASAP  

Thanks !
G 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by grahamc

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[Anakronox]

If I remember correctly, the Rokkor 40mm is multi-coated, which explains the added contrast vs. your Summicron 50.  If you want a similar contrast and sharpness, I recommend the v5.  I have one and it’s nice and contrasty, but still draws smooth and naturally.  
 

I recently picked up a Bessa R3M so I could have the 40mm frame lines for my Summicron-C.  That tiny lens is incredible and it deserved a body to shoot with!  I completely understand why you enjoy the Rokkor. 

[grahamc]

9 minutes ago, Anakronox said:

If I remember correctly, the Rokkor 40mm is multi-coated, which explains the added contrast vs. your Summicron 50.  If you want a similar contrast and sharpness, I recommend the v5.  I have one and it’s nice and contrasty, but still draws smooth and naturally.  
 

I recently picked up a Bessa R3M so I could have the 40mm frame lines for my Summicron-C.  That tiny lens is incredible and it deserved a body to shoot with!  I completely understand why you enjoy the Rokkor. 

Thanks, appreciate this and I was thinking the same .  I don't blame you at all re the Bessa - the 40:2 is a joy 

[a.noctilux]

Hello Graham,

I was a long term fan of CLE+28/40/90, the kit was proudly used for long.

The slides delivered by the kit were second to none.

 

Nothing, nada ...

In my view, you would not find the thing you like in M-Rokkor 40mm in 50mm field.

My explanation (individual, nothing universal) is simply the field of 40mm which is the sweet spot, not replicable with 35mm or 50mm.

To say it another way, maybe this famous (mystic ?) diagonal of 43mm of 24x36 which the closest is 40mm lenses.

Even in the beginning of Leica, so long ago, the first lens (legend ? short time ...) used was a microscope lens of 42mm 😉.

 

Summicron 50, why not, but the last version has something else to tell than mimic the 40mm M-Rokkor.

That said, in my rough experience, the closest 50 in general rendering to M-Rokkor 40mm would be Konica M-Hexanon 2/50mm, but don't take me wrong, this lens has it's own character to master, as all other lenses 😇.

To be learned as most of good to know lenses, ...( after using dozens of nice 50mm lenses on M over time with pleasure)

 

Have fun.

Edited September 27, 2021 by a.noctilux

[pippy]

For what I believe you are after concerning rendering I don't think you would be disappointed with either the 50 v4 or v5 Summicron.

These lenses, as I'm sure you will already know, share the same optical formula so deciding which is 'the right choice' comes down to personal handling preferences mainly regarding focus-tab / focus-ring; clip-on hood / slide-out hood and, if it is a factor, aesthetics.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Philip.

Edited September 27, 2021 by pippy

[Alberti]

It is often said that there is a balance between resolution and contrast.  On an  RFF post it is said: "Most are designed for saturation, contrast and impact. The Hex  50mm is not." Now that is interesting wording too.

For me the 40mm M-Rokkor fits clearly in that sweet spot. It is also remarkably sharp to the edges.

• On some 40mm M-Rokkor pictures I found that in a shot with the focus at 2 meters,  a high-rise building in the background on the side was blurred in the centre (bokeh..) but in the far corners all at once the field gave a sharper and in the last mm an almost sharp rendering.  I read the designer [team] who was responsible for this lens also had worked on a Noctilux (same effect) and on the 35mm AA. Nice heritage.
• I have the impression the  50mm Summicron V3 was also nicely balanced; with a higher micro-contrast albeit slightly lower resolution. I had the lens. I thought the V5 was sharper . .  it was.

The M240 sensor is very sharp - design focus evidently was on resolution. But to me the M8 CCD had a perfect balance of micro-contrast and resolution. I find the 40mm M-Rokkor gives me a little bit of that M8 look again.

How does this lens stand out against the 35mm Summicrons?

[grahamc]

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2 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Hello Graham,

I was a long term fan of CLE+28/40/90, the kit was proudly used for long.

The slides delivered by the kit were second to none.

 

Nothing, nada ...

In my view, you would not find the thing you like in M-Rokkor 40mm in 50mm field.

My explanation (individual, nothing universal) is simply the field of 40mm which is the sweet spot, not replicable with 35mm or 50mm.

To say it another way, maybe this famous (mystic ?) diagonal of 43mm of 24x36 which the closest is 40mm lenses.

Even in the beginning of Leica, so long ago, the first lens (legend ? short time ...) used was a microscope lens of 42mm 😉.

 

Summicron 50, why not, but the last version has something else to tell than mimic the 40mm M-Rokkor.

That said, in my rough experience, the closest 50 in general rendering to M-Rokkor 40mm would be Konica M-Hexanon 2/50mm, but don't take me wrong, this lens has it's own character to master, as all other lenses 😇.

To be learned as most of good to know lenses, ...( after using dozens of nice 50mm lenses on M over time with pleasure)

 

Have fun.

Thanks Arnaud 

I agree the CLE results are really impressive.  Interesting your observation of the slides quality ... Why do you think this is - I was considering also that maybe my metering skill on my M is not as effective yet as the multi metering of the CLE.

But I will keep going on my quest .. thanks for the recommendation.  I am more excited by Leica than third-party right now and will surely buy the v4/v5 Cron soon to 'get to know'  

Edited September 27, 2021 by grahamc

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

Not the simplest task finding an equivalent in render. Anything from Walter Mandler should be the closest contender for that classic 70's look, your best bet is to try the 35mm summicron Mandler designed in 1969 (they call it #2) to catch the possible closest equivalent. Marco Cavina states here that the 40/2 is inspired by summicron-M 35mm f/2 model number 11309 and he shows the double Gauss diagrams of both, which corresponds to my idea. Your 40 CLE is the last and latest "Minolta 40", multicoated yet optically identical to the 1973 summicron 40 from Wetzlar.

I somewhat disagree with comparison to 50/2 Hexanon-M as it is way too contrasty and sharp (I have both this lens and the 40/2 summicron) although the Hexanon is a direct copy of the fourth summicron 50.

If you test & compare the second 35 summicron and perhaps the above mentioned summicron 50, you should be best set.

Agree this is pricing not to be as simple as I had expected, as I must've been spoilt because the 40:2 was the first M-mount lens I bought.  

Is the 35mm you recommend the famous 8-elements?    

Considering I have 2x 35mm lenses that I am happy with but not overall happy with my current 50mm Cron I think my next try will be the 50:2 v4.    But I had no idea design of 40:2 was similar to 35:2 v2 so that's great to know for future, thanks  
 

Edited September 27, 2021 by grahamc

[grahamc]

58 minutes ago, pippy said:

For what I believe you are after concerning rendering I don't think you would be disappointed with either the 50 v4 or v5 Summicron.

These lenses, as I'm sure you will already know, share the same optical formula so deciding which is 'the right chioce' comes down to personal handling preferences mainly regarding focus-tab / focus-ring; clip-on hood / slide-out hood and, if it is a factor, aesthetics.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Philip.

Thanks I feel the positive mentions of the later cron here (and in general) make it a good choice, appreciate it Phillip

For my tastes I think the v4 tabbed would be the one to get 

[grahamc]

43 minutes ago, Alberti said:

It is often said that there is a balance between resolution and contrast.  On an  RFF post it is said: "Most are designed for saturation, contrast and impact. The Hex  50mm is not." Now that is interesting wording too.

For me the 40mm M-Rokkor fits clearly in that sweet spot. It is also remarkably sharp to the edges.

• On some 40mm M-Rokkor pictures I found that in a shot with the focus at 2 meters,  a high-rise building in the background on the side was blurred in the centre (bokeh..) but in the far corners all at once the field gave a sharper and in the last mm an almost sharp rendering.  I read the designer [team] who was responsible for this lens also had worked on a Noctilux (same effect) and on the 35mm AA. Nice heritage.
• I have the impression the  50mm Summicron V3 was also nicely balanced; with a higher micro-contrast albeit slightly lower resolution. I had the lens. I thought the V5 was sharper . .  it was.

The M240 sensor is very sharp - design focus evidently was on resolution. But to me the M8 CCD had a perfect balance of micro-contrast and resolution. I find the 40mm M-Rokkor gives me a little bit of that M8 look again.

How does this lens stand out against the 35mm Summicrons?

Yes it is lovely (the 40) I really like it.  

Interesting to read your comments about the v3.  I think mine may not be a great copy or need a service because it's not particularly sharp - so much so that on a grainy film like Tri-X it just lacks bite and appears soft.  I find mine low contrast (although that's relative, in comparison to my 35:2 v4 and 40:2).  Despite this I do like it but just not for the purposes I've mentioned in this thread.   And may like it more after a CLA if it has an issue .

I think with the 50:2 v4/v5 reputation aswell as unanimous recommendations in this thread it could be a good choice.

I don't know whether to celebrate or commiserate that my 40 'cron' is so unique and hard to emulate   To answer your comment about the 35 crons ... I only have the v4 but did some side-by-side with the 40:2 and the 35 was close "but not that close" .     I imagine the increased contrast makes the 40:2 appear sharper also but at 100% crops there was no contest really in the side by sides.   In practice though these aren't a bad pair and I like the 35:2 v4 .  

I wonder also if the 40mm FL versus 35mm assists in giving the 40mm some perceived punch in the images over the 35mm.  I'm a newbie so unsure if that has merit. 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by grahamc

[Aryel]

23 minutes ago, grahamc said:

 

I think with the 50:2 v4/v5 reputation aswell as unanimous recommendations in this thread it could be a good choice

I sold my 50: v4 couple of months back. I never really warmed up to it, especially for black and white.

You could also consider a summilux 50 pre-asph. 
 

[grahamc]

25 minutes ago, Aryel said:

I sold my 50: v4 couple of months back. I never really warmed up to it, especially for black and white.

You could also consider a summilux 50 pre-asph. 
 

Thanks - was there anything in particular you didn’t like ? Do you have the pre-asph. I’ve been considering it for a while also 

[Aryel]

1 minute ago, grahamc said:

28 minutes ago, Aryel said:

 

Thanks - was there anything in particular you didn’t like ? Do you have the pre-asph. I’ve been considering it for a while also 

I can’t really give you a technical answer: was very happy with it in colours. As soon as I switched to almost 100% black and white and darkroom printing, it just did not work for me anymore. I tend to prefer older lenses now (rigid, elmar). The summilux pre-asph is one of the exception. I like it both for colours and black and white so it killed the summicron v4 for me. 

Hope this helps a bit. Just pointing that the 50 summilux pre-asph is worth a look in my opinion. 
 

I should be able to find some photos taken with both if this is helpful. 

[grahamc]

4 minutes ago, Aryel said:

I can’t really give you a technical answer: was very happy with it in colours. As soon as I switched to almost 100% black and white and darkroom printing, it just did not work for me anymore. I tend to prefer older lenses now (rigid, elmar). The summilux pre-asph is one of the exception. I like it both for colours and black and white so it killed the summicron v4 for me. 

Hope this helps a bit. Just pointing that the 50 summilux pre-asph is worth a look in my opinion. 
 

I should be able to find some photos taken with both if this is helpful. 

That would be extremely helpful thanks. Feel free to post or PM.  I’ve been thinking of the lux for a while, although was a little put off by the larger size weight.  I know it’s not huge but it’s a consideration at least.  

In getting the v3 (and initially enjoying it) I put the pre-asph Lux to the back of my mind as I assumed in some respects they may be fairly similar .
 
I’ll put it back in the mix 

[a.noctilux]

This is nice sideway : Summilux 50mm pre-asph.

If you want something to discover, to love (or not depend on you ! ).

This was a gem I neglicted for other lenses, but now (lately to be exact) I do them justice when I need them.

 

Long story as usual, for me discovering this gem.

I can not choose between older 1960's or newer 1990's or 2k of 'same' lens, I do use three to choose from.

At first, I had the 1970-80 black model, sold it then later regretted so I purchased back silver model after gorgeous/heavy titanium coated (368g),

then the latest E46/0.7m/sliding hood, black ( only 275g, this one is the nicest to use).

...

very nice balance for such a good lens

 

 

the trio

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by a.noctilux

[grahamc]

Mmmm tempting @a.noctilux 

Was the titan one also the E46 slide out hood ?  I don’t recall seeing an earlier Titan.  

So maybe for the E46 it’s :

275g - black Ali 

368g - brass coated with silver or titan 

(I love the idea of brass but expect that in use I’d find them a bit heavy for my liking) 

[a.noctilux]

Those are the reasons why I have three to choose from.

The first is very nice for precise focussing to 1m only, very long focus throw.

The Ti is heavy but not that much as I said the balance is very good with every M.

The last black E46 is the nicest to use, I'd suggest to find this one.

Edited September 27, 2021 by a.noctilux

[BradS]

9 hours ago, grahamc said:

...... Currently I own the 50mm Cron v3 but my copy is not particularly sharp and is also relatively low contrast compared to my 40:2 ....  So overall it doesn't deliver anywhere close to the same 'bite'. ...

 

It seems that the  v.3 Summicron you already have may benefit from being professionally serviced - including having it collimated.

Edited September 27, 2021 by BradS

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[oldwino]

One option may be the 50/2.4 Summarit. I found it as sharp as the Summicron v4/5, but had a gentler rendering (the Summicrons can be, for me, a tad too clinical). The size is nice, too.
I also like the suggestion of the 50 Summilux Pre Asph. Gorgeous lens, in every way, kind of its own sub-genre. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by oldwino

[grahamc]

7 hours ago, BradS said:

 

It seems that the  v.3 Summicron you already have may benefit from being professionally serviced - including having it collimated.

I agree, this had crossed my mind also as the first step