Any Zeiss Tele Apotessar 350mm shooters out there?

[Deliberate1]

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Friends, I shoot both the 006 and 007 bodies and own the Contax adapter which is generally connected to the Zeiss 120mm. It is a brilliant lens and has the added macro flexibility. I also have the Zeiss 210mm, which has produced much less consistent results, especially with the extender. And the 35mm as well, which is s solid performer.

In preparation of a trip to Montana this coming winter, I am considering the Zeiss beast (https://www.zeiss.com/content/dam/consumer-products/downloads/historical-products/photography/contax-645/en/datasheet-zeiss-tele-apotessar-4350-en.pdf). It is old, big and weighs in at Sumo level, at 8 pounds. But it is essentially twice as long as Leica's longest for the S, without the motor drama. And it is just a half stop slower than than Leica's 180mm. And I have never ever worried about one of my Zeiss lenses crapping out at just the wrong time. 

Before investing in this lens, I would be very interested in the experiences of any of you gents who own and have lived with this behemoth.

Much obliged,

David

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[mgrayson3]

I bought one but returned it as it was not an improvement on the 180S for final detail. Ditto the 210 with or without teleconverter. The 180S is just very very good. Of course, it is likely that my copy of the 350 was substandard.

The best results I've seen from the long end of MF are with the Fuji GF 250/4 + 1.4x. A wonderful lens.

Matt

[Deliberate1]

53 minutes ago, mgrayson3 said:

I bought one but returned it as it was not an improvement on the 180S for final detail. Ditto the 210 with or without teleconverter. The 180S is just very very good. Of course, it is likely that my copy of the 350 was substandard.

The best results I've seen from the long end of MF are with the Fuji GF 250/4 + 1.4x. A wonderful lens.

Matt

Matt, thank you for your observations. 

Sadly, or not, there is no GFX body in my arsenal. Seems that, among all the cameras I have bought over the years, that one escaped capture.

Best,

David

[adan]

See if you can track down a Zeiss 350mm f/5.6 Tele-Superachromat CFE for Hassy V-mount. Much higher MTF compared to the APO-Tessar for the Contax. And just a measly 1800g/4 lbs.

http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/pdf/lds/CFE350.pdf

 

[mgrayson3]

4 hours ago, adan said:

See if you can track down a Zeiss 350mm f/5.6 Tele-Superachromat CFE for Hassy V-mount. Much higher MTF compared to the APO-Tessar for the Contax. And just a measly 1800g/4 lbs.

http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/pdf/lds/CFE350.pdf

 

Now THAT is a great lens! Never used one, as I'm an AF junky.

[Deliberate1]

7 hours ago, adan said:

See if you can track down a Zeiss 350mm f/5.6 Tele-Superachromat CFE for Hassy V-mount. Much higher MTF compared to the APO-Tessar for the Contax. And just a measly 1800g/4 lbs.

http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/pdf/lds/CFE350.pdf

 

Thanks for the suggestion. I investigated and discovered that lens, plus adapter, exceeds the cost of the Contax lens by 100% +/-.  The Zeiss for Hassy may be a great lens, but is not economically sensible. Beyond that, I have a Contax adapter that works with my three Zeiss lenses. It took a while to get there. I have a pal who went through a similar experience. The idea of starting with a new adapter saga is not attractive to me. So if I go long, it will be with the Contax mount. But I am obliged for your note.

David

Edited September 11, 2021 by Deliberate1

[darylgo]

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Mamiya made a 300mm F2.8 Apo for the 645 system. The lens has manual focus and an aperture ring. In addition, there is a 2x tele converter available. The lens makes good images, not stellar like an S lens. Advantages over the Contax lens is that although discontinued there are no electronics to make the lens irreparable. You can buy the adapter for Mamiya, a simple adapter, and this will open the whole 645 manual focus lineup. The lenses were well made, good IQ and lightweight. Don’t confuse these with the current AF lineup.  As a fun afternoon project I was able to match Mamiya colors to Zeiss colors in Lightroom when shooting the Contax 645 and a P30+ back.  

[Stuart Richardson]

I looked into this back in the day. I have a 350mm Zeiss FE lens (the F4 version) and it did not do well on the S at all. The 350mm Superachromat is surely a better lens, but in order to be usable, it would have to be a MUCH better lens. With the 350mm FE lens, at no aperture was it sharp. It did much better closer up, but that was not how I needed the lens. It was a very highly regarded lens in its day, about 7 or 8 thousand dollars in the 90s and early 2000s.

There are two main issues at play here: 1. the S lenses are orders of magnitude better than most older telephoto lenses for MF, and the requirements for the smaller sensor of the S are much higher than they were for 6x6 and larger film. 2. The mirror and shutter in the S causes enough vibration to cause unsharpness in very long lenses even if you have a good tripod and use mirror pre-release. To get around this, I suggest a heavy wooden tripod and pre release along with a very high shutter speed. Overall, it is not very practical. I found this work much much better accomplished with the SL2 and the E shutter. Obviously, that is not an option if you do not have one.

If you want a telephoto for the S, Helge had good experience with the 280mm APO Telyt f4 lens, which when converted to the S system has enough coverage. I think he liked the 300mm Mamiya lens as well, but he will likely come by and put in his advice. 

[Deliberate1]

5 hours ago, darylgo said:

Mamiya made a 300mm F2.8 Apo for the 645 system. The lens has manual focus and an aperture ring. In addition, there is a 2x tele converter available. The lens makes good images, not stellar like an S lens. Advantages over the Contax lens is that although discontinued there are no electronics to make the lens irreparable. You can buy the adapter for Mamiya, a simple adapter, and this will open the whole 645 manual focus lineup. The lenses were well made, good IQ and lightweight. Don’t confuse these with the current AF lineup.  As a fun afternoon project I was able to match Mamiya colors to Zeiss colors in Lightroom when shooting the Contax 645 and a P30+ back.  

Daryl, thanks for the suggestion which I will explore. Your observation about the electronics issue is totally legit. The Mamiya name is blast from the past - like Nikkormat and Minolta SRT 101 vintage. I may be off by a decade or two, but that is the epoc the name conjures for me.

David

Edited September 12, 2021 by Deliberate1

[Deliberate1]

54 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I looked into this back in the day. I have a 350mm Zeiss FE lens (the F4 version) and it did not do well on the S at all. The 350mm Superachromat is surely a better lens, but in order to be usable, it would have to be a MUCH better lens. With the 350mm FE lens, at no aperture was it sharp. It did much better closer up, but that was not how I needed the lens. It was a very highly regarded lens in its day, about 7 or 8 thousand dollars in the 90s and early 2000s.

There are two main issues at play here: 1. the S lenses are orders of magnitude better than most older telephoto lenses for MF, and the requirements for the smaller sensor of the S are much higher than they were for 6x6 and larger film. 2. The mirror and shutter in the S causes enough vibration to cause unsharpness in very long lenses even if you have a good tripod and use mirror pre-release. To get around this, I suggest a heavy wooden tripod and pre release along with a very high shutter speed. Overall, it is not very practical. I found this work much much better accomplished with the SL2 and the E shutter. Obviously, that is not an option if you do not have one.

If you want a telephoto for the S, Helge had good experience with the 280mm APO Telyt f4 lens, which when converted to the S system has enough coverage. I think he liked the 300mm Mamiya lens as well, but he will likely come by and put in his advice. 

Stuart, very helpful insights. It disappoints me to hear about the potential incompatibility of the long Zeiss lens and Leica camera body, or simply that they are mismatched. The Zeiss for Contax 120mm has been a stellar performer on both my S bodies. So much so that I have never really cosidered replacing it with the Leica version.  The 35mm is similarly capable, though I did eventuakly get the Leica iteration because, well, you know, that dot....The 210mm has been a meh lens. Fortunately, it cost someting like $250, a fraction of what I put out for the adapter. I would like to own the 80mm Zeiss which has a very singular signature, and I should have bought one several years ago before everyone figured out how well they pair with the S, and prices doubled plus.

You know, Leica could resolve the issue by making a proper long lens for all of us. Perhaps it fears that many of us would perish from starvation after ponying up the price cost of admission. I quiver to think....

Best to you.

David

[mgrayson3]

And there's always the Pentax 67 lenses, which come in 300/4, 400/4, 600/4, and 800/4. The last one is a 40lb monster. 😵 Do the math on the size of the objective.

Edited September 12, 2021 by mgrayson3

[mgrayson3]

15 minutes ago, Deliberate1 said:

You know, Leica could resolve the issue by making a proper long lens for all of us. Perhaps it fears that many of us would perish from starvation after ponying up the price cost of admission. I quiver to think....

Best to you.

David

I believe the original plan was for a 350mm S lens.  There's even a picture of it (or a mockup) in the very early promotional material. The size, weight, and price (can you imagine?) made it impractical, so I was told. (There's a very funny video clip of "Things Leica Owners Say". It's in good fun and not at all hostile the way you might think. One brilliant bit is a woman wandering around singing to herself "Leica virgin. Broke for the very first time...")

Matt

Ah. Here we go... and there's a Tilt Shift lens off on the right...

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Edited September 12, 2021 by mgrayson3

[adan]

21 minutes ago, Deliberate1 said:

The Mamiya name is blast from the past - like Nikkormat and Minolta SRT 101 vintage. I may be off by a decade or two....

Or three or four.

Mamiya only discontinued their RZ67 Pro IID in 2012, and Mamiya 7 II (6x7 rangefinder) in 2014. Their 645 system has lived on as a "tame camera body" owned by PhaseOne.

Nikkormat - defunct 1977-78 (replaced by FM/FE series)

Minolta SRT-101 - defunct 1976 (replaced by XE series)

[Deliberate1]

22 minutes ago, adan said:

Or three or four.

Mamiya only discontinued their RZ67 Pro IID in 2012, and Mamiya 7 II (6x7 rangefinder) in 2014. Their 645 system has lived on as a "tame camera body" owned by PhaseOne.

Nikkormat - defunct 1977-78 (replaced by FM/FE series)

Minolta SRT-101 - defunct 1976 (replaced by XE series)

Those models are all "new comers."

This is what came to my mind.

http://herron.50megs.com/prismat.htm

David

[Deliberate1]

42 minutes ago, mgrayson3 said:

IThere's a very funny video clip of "Things Leica Owners Say". It's in good fun and not at all hostile the way you might think. One brilliant bit is a woman wandering around singing to herself "Leica virgin. Broke for the very first time..."

 

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LOL! The perfect drinking song at the Leica corporate retreat.

 

David

[darylgo]

26 minutes ago, mgrayson3 said:

"Leica virgin. Broke for the very first time...")

LOL - funny song.

 

48 minutes ago, Deliberate1 said:

Your observation about the electronics issue is totally legit.

This has happened to me with a Nikon zoom lens, not particularly sharp but a lens that is very useable because it has an aperture ring and it's adaptable.  The first AF-S lens Nikon made and it is now unrepairable because the motor is no longer available.  I am happy to have my S system but likely they are the last of the electronic lenses I will purchase.  Leica has been very good in the past about repairs but we now see that certain parts are creating obsolescence with the M9 sensor, and this is out of Leica's control.  

This morning I realized I hadn't shot my Mamiya 300mm for quite a while, covid and all.  I pulled the lens out and wanted to shoot a mountain pass with car lights but the weather had different plans for me, completely fogged in.  I did manage to take a few frames shooting straight into street lights and outdoor house lights.  Also, how Apo is this lens, it had a good reputation and I believe sold for or listed at $10,000 when new.   Surprisingly, the lens is almost completely free of color fringing.  I checked ebay for current prices, they now sell for close to $5000.   This is double the price of a few years back, the 200mm Apo now sells for close to $1000, again doubling in price but the S 180mm is a better performer.  A few more observations, the lens adapter made by Leica is solid, there is no wiggle to the adapter except on the lens side, the lens turns about 1 degree indicating to me it is the Mamiya mount that is the weakest link.  The lens is heavy, not hand holdable, with an S006 body and adapter it's over 9 lbs, and the lens alone is 6lbs 8 oz or slightly less than 3 kg.   

[Stuart Richardson]

A Mamiya 7II and lens will probably cost you more than an S2 or S006 body that this point...on par with an S007. So discontinued or not, they have their admirers (I am among them...). The Mamiya 7II is still one of the best film cameras ever made...as much as I like Leica, I would take the Mamiya 7II over any film camera Leica ever made. The quality of the lenses combined with the size of the film and superb ergonomics, reliability...nothing Leica made comes close to it in image quality. They did not get there until the S2...

Edited September 12, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[Deliberate1]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

A Mamiya 7II and lens will probably cost you more than an S2 or S006 body that this point...on par with an S007. So discontinued or not, they have their admirers (I am among them...). The Mamiya 7II is still one of the best film cameras ever made...as much as I like Leica, I would take the Mamiya 7II over any film camera Leica ever made. The quality of the lenses combined with the size of the film and superb ergonomics, reliability...nothing Leica made comes close to it in image quality. They did not get there until the S2...

Since I gave birth to this thread, and believe that once in the wild it should drift with the wind, I too have a favorite film rig - Rollei 6008i. With the venerable Kreuznach-Schneider 90mm macro, it has made me gorgeous square images over the years. Years ago, when publications were dumping their large format scanners, I bought an Eversmart Pro II (run by Mac G5) which I used to digitize the 6x6cm chromes. Worked in LR/PS I have printed them to the maximum 24" square dimensions of my equally venerable Epson 7800 which has given me around 17 years of trouble-free service. 

Like you, Stuart, I still regard that film rig with great reverence. Though, in certain parts of the world, the mass of the Rollei with 90mm has been greeted with considerable suspicion. I recall sitting not so far from the Western Wall in Jerusalem changing out a film cartridge when an Israeli soldier walked by, looked down at my kit, and said "nice bazooka." After people  literally scatterd when I would raise it to my eye, I switched out the 45 viewer for the waist finder. All was good.

David

Edited September 12, 2021 by Deliberate1

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[Stuart Richardson]

Yes, I used a Rollei 6008AF for awhile and it was a great camera. Better in many ways than the Hasselblads (even the 203FE), but also had a few big challenges that made it less useful (size and weight, finicky batteries, less than optimal shutter release). It certainly was sharper than the Hasselblads due to the much better designed film/pressure plate system. I had both head to head, and the Rollei was sharper with every lens, even lenses that were the same optical formula. I did not have the 90mm, but I had the 180mm. It was alarmingly big. I can only imagine using a camera like that in an area where conflict was common. I don't think it would be my first choice for that reason! I did some 1mX1m chromes from that camera for an exhibition, and they hold up beautifully at that size. You are lucky to have an Eversmart...they are superb if you can still maintain a system to use them. I always wanted one, but I could not justify the small increase in quality for 4x5 and 120, versus the X5 I use for clients. The problem is that people do not pay enough for scans here to be able to account for the difference in time and effort.

In any case, I hope that you find a good solution for your long telephoto!

[albireo_double]

I have the Hasselblad HC 300/4.5 with the Leica S adapter. Have never studied the MTF charts but it works for me (having said that, I do not use it so often). Fully integrated, AF works like a native lens etc. Much better ergonomics/manageability that the Zeiss Apo Tessar.

Agree fully with the comments re Rollei Schneider lenses. I even bought a new Hy6 mod2 from DW recently, with some lenses that are supposed to be "the last ever made, because this is the last set of components we have". Sadly, there were issues with the film back (leaking light, film not held flat in some images) and the focusing screen (did not confirm with AF) and the camera and lenses have now been with DW for the past three weeks. I am only hoping that they don't go bankrupt again, before they return my equipment. But yes, on those images where the above issues did not occur, the sharpness, contrast and overall quality were the best I have ever seen on medium format film.