28mm: Elmarit-M (V4) Pre-ASPH (11809) .vs. Elmarit-M ASPH (V1) (11606) ???

[Danner]

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Greetings.  I finally obtained a 28mm finder for my M6, thusly overcoming my eyeglasses-challenged framing.  For zone-focused film street shooting mostly.  All things being equal (which they never are, LOL), which of these lenses would you prefer?  I've located one of each at comparable prices.

Thank you for your thoughts.

- Dan

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[RF’sDelight]

Hi! My straight thoughts: go for the 1106. It’s smaller, lighter and delivers most likely better IQ.

My non-asph 28mm lenses are older than the 11809 but I do have the 11606 in my collection and it’s a stunning performer. 

For the specs:

• https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/28mm_f/2.8_ASPH_Elmarit-M
• https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/28mm_f/2.8_Elmarit-M_IV

[oldwino]

I’ve always thought that wide angle lenses needed to have the highest resolution / IQ possible. After all, you are packing the frame with a lot of information (as opposed to a longer lens, which tends to isolate information), so the better a lens can resolve, the more “info” you can see. Especially with film. 
I’d go for the modern Elmarit, or perhaps the new Voigtlander Ultron 28. 

[adan]

Glad you specified film photography, because that obviates one of the important differences - factory-original 6-bit coding and in-camera color correction for use on digital sensors.

The ASPH was introduced right alongside the digital Leica M8 and thus was one of the first M lenses never made without 6-bit coding. It was intended to be a lens as compact as the pre-digital 35 Summicrons while retaining approximately the 35mm field of view on the cropped sensor of the M8 (28mm x 1.333 crop factor = "37.3mm" effective field of view.)

(To be clear - the ASPH also works OK on 24x36 sensors or film (it is not an "M8-only" lens), and the v.4 pre-ASPH can be retrofitted with 6-bit coding. It's just that, on film, the presence/absence of the coding is irrelevant).

Personally, I have never gotten along with the ASPH. I prefer the v.3 or v.4 pre-ASPHs.

I find its global contrast (as opposed to micro- or edge-contrast) to be harsh; I don't like its pinker color compared to the pre-ASPH 28mm lenses; and it has some significant astigmatism (divergence of sharpness in different directions) that can look like motion blur (see MTF chart and image sample below - note text letters are blurred more left-right than up-down - click to enlarge)

However - the longer latitude of film; using B&W film; and/or the grain of film may help hide or subdue all those characteristics.

And it may also be a question of taste - astigmatism is definitely a pet peeve of mine. It's hard enough avoiding motion blur without the lens "simulating" it as well. YMMV.

In favor of the ASPH - slightly better-corrected rectilinear distortion, super-compact and light.

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[Capuccino-Muffin]

1 hour ago, oldwino said:

I’ve always thought that wide angle lenses needed to have the highest resolution / IQ possible. After all, you are packing the frame with a lot of information (as opposed to a longer lens, which tends to isolate information), so the better a lens can resolve, the more “info” you can see. Especially with film. 
I’d go for the modern Elmarit, or perhaps the new Voigtlander Ultron 28. 

This is weird and mind boggling, headache.
 

Basically, the information is exactly the same. 24 million pixels will get hit by light, regardless of the focal length. Wether a house is included in the frame or not, it is not a real house entering the frame, but only light. 
 

[Danner]

@adan That's rather interesting about astigmatism, and the way it can be determined from the MTF chart.  Never heard of that before, but it makes sense to me.

While I do primarily shoot HP5, which neither benefits 6-bit coding, nor results in super-high resolving power, I have started to watch M10 used prices, and hope that I can snag one at a favorable price whenever the M11 comes out.  So, 6-bit coding is a plus (my v4 35 'cron was after-coded by Wetzlar, and my 50 'cron was coded at the time of manufacture, but my v2 50 'lux is not coded).  Interesting about the M8/Elmarit ASPH release timing too.  I'm thinking that's the way to go here.

[pippy]

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Much depends on your own personal preferences. FWIW here is how I went about the same process;

When I was shopping for a 28 a few years back I considered pretty much everything on the market and the lens which ticked all the boxes for me was the v1 ASPH Elmarit.

The v1 (11606) is smaller, sharper & lighter than anything which came before. The v2 ASPH had slightly re-vamped optics to improve far-corner f2.8 performance with a digital sensor but has a much larger lens-hood than the v1 and that, for me, was a deal-breaker between the two ASPHs. Extreme sharpness in far-corner performance at f2.8 wasn't exactly high-up on my 'to-do' list whereas I really do value compactness highly.

The 11606 also takes the regular E39 filters and I use these quite a bit for B'n'W snapping. The 11809 takes E46 filters and would have required a new set to be bought. It is also considerably larger, has a hood which, in comparison to the 11606, is MASSIVE and the lens' performance is less-sharp into the bargain.

For me the v1 was clearly the best option and I must say I've been astonished by how well it performs.

Whether or not any of this is relevant to your own needs, Danner, I don't know but, FWIW, that was my thought-process.

Regardless; whichever version you decide to buy I'm absolutely sure you will not be disappointed; all Leica 28mm lenses perform brilliantly in their own individual ways.

Best of fortune in your decision!

Philip.

Edited August 8, 2021 by pippy

[oldwino]

3 hours ago, Capuccino-Muffin said:

This is weird and mind boggling, headache.
 

Basically, the information is exactly the same. 24 million pixels will get hit by light, regardless of the focal length. Wether a house is included in the frame or not, it is not a real house entering the frame, but only light. 
 

Do you deny that some lenses are capable of rendering fine details better than others?

[Danner]

5 hours ago, pippy said:

Much depends on your own personal preferences. FWIW here is how I went about the same process;

When I was shopping for a 28 a few years back I considered pretty much everything on the market and the lens which ticked all the boxes for me was the v1 ASPH Elmarit.

The v1 (11606) is smaller, sharper & lighter than anything which came before. The v2 ASPH had slightly re-vamped optics to improve far-corner f2.8 performance with a digital sensor but has a much larger lens-hood than the v1 and that, for me, was a deal-breaker between the two ASPHs. Extreme sharpness in far-corner performance at f2.8 wasn't exactly high-up on my 'to-do' list whereas I really do value compactness highly.

The 11606 also takes the regular E39 filters and I use these quite a bit for B'n'W snapping. The 11809 takes E46 filters and would have required a new set to be bought. It is also considerably larger, has a hood which, in comparison to the 11606, is MASSIVE and the lens' performance is less-sharp into the bargain.

For me the v1 was clearly the best option and I must say I've been astonished by how well it performs.

Whether or not any of this is relevant to your own needs, Danner, I don't know but, FWIW, that was my thought-process.

Regardless; whichever version you decide to buy I'm absolutely sure you will not be disappointed; all Leica 28mm lenses perform brilliantly in their own individual ways.

Best of fortune in your decision!

Philip.

@pippy  Thanks for the detailed response, convincing.

I might be a dinosaur, but the current gen screw-on hoods bug me.  Not because they aren't excellent at shading the lens, because they are, and not because the industrial design isn't svelte, because it is, rather, I'd damage them is daily use, for sure.  I like something out front that can take bumps and bangs.

[crony]

Hi, I have both. - The major advantage of the asph. version is its compactness. IQ differences are difficult to find - if any.

The asph. version v1 is not as well made as my other Leica lenses. Mine ser#4099925 has some play in the aperture ring... ---

 

[pippy]

20 minutes ago, crony said:

...The asph. version v1 is not as well made as my other Leica lenses. Mine ser#4099925 has some play in the aperture ring...

With the greatest of respect, crony, do you not think the play in your aperture ring might be example-specific? Mine - slightly older than yours and dating to 2003 - has no play at all nor have I ever read of a loose ring being an issue with anyone else's so to say the "...v1 is not as well made..." is at best a sweeping generalisation and at worst, possibly, simply incorrect.

My 50 v4 Summicron, like your v1 asph, has a slightly loose aperture ring but I'd never suggest all v4 50 Summicrons are like my one example.

Just a thought and no offence meant!............

Philip.

Edited August 10, 2021 by pippy

[AndreasG]

I only can second @pippy, in my case the V1 ASPH (42328xx) does not show any unusual play (only a lot of dust... my apology)

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[crony]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

With the greatest of respect, crony, do you not think the play in your aperture ring might be example-specific? Mine - slightly older than yours and dating to 2003 - has no play at all nor have I ever read of a loose ring being an issue with anyone else's so to say the "...v1 is not as well made..." is at best a sweeping generalisation and at worst, possibly, simply incorrect.

My 50 v4 Summicron, like your v1 asph, has a slightly loose aperture ring but I'd never suggest all v4 50 Summicrons are like my one example.

Just a thought and no offence meant!............

Philip.

Hi, maybe it shows that I have high(er) expectations for Leica lenses ... --- So, I was just unlucky or I should have tried the other 28mm Elmarits asph. in the store. My bad ... ---

[pippy]

2 hours ago, crony said:

...So, I was just unlucky or I should have tried the other 28mm Elmarits asph. in the store...

If it was loose when new then yes; perhaps it might have been a good idea to try others.

The feel of aperture rings, evidently, can vary from lens to lens. When reviewing two examples of 90mm v3 pre-asph Summicron (one black-chrome and the other silver-chrome) Mr. Rockwell states;

"...The chromed brass version is exquisite...There is no play, while the focus ring turns smoothly. The aperture ring turns effortlessly, also without any play. Oddly, the aperture ring's detents are rather subtle, so you need to feel for them carefully..."

As it happens I also have one of each but with my lenses it is the black-chrome version which has the 'subtle' clicks and the more positive detents are to be found on the silver lens.

Philip.

[LarsHP]

Just as oldwino, I'd like to recommend the new 28mm Ultron Asph II.

It is really tiny, and it's one of the sharpest corner to corner lenses I have ever had my hands on, beating the Summicron-M Asph v2 I also own - particularly towards the extreme sides and corners. It's extremely flare resistant, yields high contrast images and has practically no distortion. It uses 39mm filter if that's a consideration.

The only drawbacks I can find is vignetting and its consequences: exposure between f/2 and f/2.4 only affects the very center, and background blur, as well as bokeh, suffers a bit outside the center when shooting wide open. Bokeh in the central region is beautiful though. Aperture-wise the sweet spot is probably around f/4 to f/5.6 where it produces stunning image quality corner to corner.

Below is a center crop @ f/2 in 100%

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Edited August 10, 2021 by LarsHP

[Danner]

I went with the v1 ASPH, it came in tonight.  I got lucky, this is a sparkling little gem of a lens.  Super-pumped, can't wait to shoot it tomorrow.

Here it is, with the Voiglander 21mm viewfinder.  a la Garry Winogrand 😉

 

 

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Edited August 11, 2021 by Danner

[Martin B]

Leica M-E 240, Leica 28/2.8 Elmarit-M Version IV (pre-ASPH)

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Leica M6, Leica 28/2.8 Elmarit-M Version IV (pre-ASPH), Ilford FP4+ 125 pushed to ISO 200

Just two examples of many I took on digital and film with this superb lens. I don't see a debit of this lens - track sharp and rich of contrast. I won't upgrade to a newer version. Fantastic lens - if you can get hold of one of the version IV copies which seem hard to find these days (including the hood, too). 

The ASPH successor lens model goes normally for at least $500 more as used EX+ copy. Is it worth it? Personal decision, it wasn't worth it for me for sure. The version IV lens is one of my often used and most favorite M-lenses. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Martin B