90 Summicron c. 1960, where's my serial number

[drew.saunders]

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Years ago I bought a 90mm Summicron "version I" in M mount from KEH for a very reasonable price because I wanted a 90/2 with removable head for use on my Visoflex Bellows. It's a black one that looks identical to the one on the left in the wiki article here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Summicron_(I)_f%3D_9_cm_1:2

Here's the weird thing: In that image, between "Canada" and "Summicron" is very clearly the serial number of the example lens.

Mine has a blank space there. There's clearly space for the serial number, it's just blank. 

See the attached quick and easy fone foto (and, yes, as my wife has told me, I need to take better care of the skin on my hands, I know...)

Has anyone seen a similar lens? Is this some rare prototype worth giant sacks of money, or did Leica do this often back in the early 60's.

Drew

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[wda]

Have you looked inside the mount end? Also, unscrew the lens head and check that the two numbers, one  on each piece, match.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Drew,

Welcome to the Forum.

The place that you indicated is where the serial number generally is. There are usually also internal serial numbers, or internal partial serial numbers.

Is this a pre-set lens?

Best Regards,

Michael

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[drew.saunders]

7 minutes ago, wda said:

Have you looked inside the mount end? Also, unscrew the lens head and check that the two numbers, one  on each piece, match.

Tried both of those long ago. No numbers or any text on the lens head or inside the focusing body. Someone engraved "33" on the "tube" containing the rearmost elements in the lens head, but that's clearly done by hand. Nothing on the mount side.

My guess is that it was repaired and the front had to be replaced, but that's just my guess. Maybe the hand-scratched/engraved "33" is related to some repair work?

This lens was bought in "Bargain" condition and it shows, it's clearly been used and used well, but the glass is good.

Thanks!

Drew

Edited June 13, 2021 by drew.saunders

[drew.saunders]

Just now, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Drew,

Welcome to the Forum.

The place that you indicated is where the serial number generally is.

Is this a pre-set lens?

Best Regards,

Michael

 

No, it's a regular aperture, not a preset. I have a 200/4 for the Visoflex that's a preset, so I'm familiar with those, and this isn't one of them. From the top, 22 is all the way to the left, 2 on the right (some 90/2 are reversed).

Thanks!

Drew

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Drew,

Is it possible to see another photo of the lens looking at it as if it was on the camera & you were looking at it from the top, over the camera?

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited June 13, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[drew.saunders]

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5 minutes ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Drew,

Is it possible to see another photo of the lens looking at it as if it was on the camera & you were looking at it from the top, over the camera?

Best Regards,

Michael

I'll take some better photos and post them soon. Apparently, I'm not the only one intrigued by my mystery lens.

Drew

[drew.saunders]

OK, here are some quick pics with my Fuji's macro lens (I do own an M6TTL, it's just a bit impractical for this purpose!)

One shows the style of 90/2, scalloped focus ring, and the aperture ring.

Next shows the bottom, "Lens made in Canada" where there might be other numbers, nothing.

Then the mystery hand-scratched "33." 

Then the removed lens head from the rear, no numbers anywhere.

Finally, the body and head side by side, not the best photo, but I think it shows that there are no numbers in there either.

I presume if I knew how to take apart the lens head, there would be numbers inside, but I don't want to do that.

Thanks again for all who are following!

Drew

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[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Drew,

Nice photos.

You don't want to disassemble anything more than you already did. This is fine.

90mm F2 Summicrons of this large variety are lenses that have a lot of variations. And the WIKI at the top of this pages has the photographs of the different lenses identified incorrectly.

The right hand chrome lens of what is called Variety II is actually the first version also known as SOOZI in screw mount or SOOZI-M in bayonet mount. The left hand photo is 1 of the variants of what is referred to as Variety II.

What is referred to as Variety I with both a chrome lens and a black lens is Variety I

I think that your lens MIGHT be a version of the actual Variety II from around 1963 that is different than the lens shown in the WIKI above. There are a lot of different 1's. To know better we need to see another photo like the front view that you just showed but with the lens focused to Infinity.

Best Regards,

Michael

 

[drew.saunders]

26 minutes ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

 

I think that your lens MIGHT be a version of the actual Variety II from around 1963 that is different than the lens shown in the WIKI above. There are a lot of different 1's. To know better we need to see another photo like the front view that you just showed but with the lens focused to Infinity.

 

 

Michael,

Thanks for all your help and information. Here are a few more.

First, with the built-in hood fully extended and set to F/4.

Next, front view also at F/4 to show the aperture blade count and style. I had to hold this above a grey background, so it's not super sharp.

Finally, the size and part number (14133) of the lens cap that came with it, plus the plastic rear cap that came with it. I presume each was original.

Drew

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[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Drew,

This view from the front helps. I think that the lens head & focusing mount are both from around 1966. 90mm F2 Summicrons had a lot of different versions over the production span.

I think that the lens cap MIGHT be newer. Lens caps get lost or/& replaced often. It would be interesting to see the other side of the rear cap.

Front & back caps are easily replaced or interchanged & their dates are not necessarily diagnostic of the lens or lens mount.

The actual focal length appears to be 89.5mm if the 2 numbers under the "CANADA" on the focusing mount are "95". Leitz started adding the actual focal length to the engraving on focusing mounts with the last 2 tenths of a millimeter without the " .  " between the "9" and the "5".

Best Regards,

Michael

 

[drew.saunders]

Michael,

The tiny numbers are "05" so this is a 90.5mm focal length lens. Thanks for pointing that out, now I'll check all my other older lenses.

I may get a better photo of the bottom of the rear cap, but it's plastic, says "Leitz" in script, and has three little "feet."

Based on the possible mis-match of the front and rear caps, the age, and the fact that the lettering on the front of the lens is so much nicer and newer-looking than the very faded lettering on the body, it would appear that this lens was sent for a repair that worked on the front element and that the "face" of the lens was replaced. I presume Leitz would not have bothered re-engraving the serial number into a replacement part, assuming the real serial number is inside the lens somewhere.

Thanks again for all your information! This has been quite informative and a lot of fun!

Drew

[jdlaing]

2 hours ago, drew.saunders said:

Michael,

The tiny numbers are "05" so this is a 90.5mm focal length lens. Thanks for pointing that out, now I'll check all my other older lenses.

I may get a better photo of the bottom of the rear cap, but it's plastic, says "Leitz" in script, and has three little "feet."

Based on the possible mis-match of the front and rear caps, the age, and the fact that the lettering on the front of the lens is so much nicer and newer-looking than the very faded lettering on the body, it would appear that this lens was sent for a repair that worked on the front element and that the "face" of the lens was replaced. I presume Leitz would not have bothered re-engraving the serial number into a replacement part, assuming the real serial number is inside the lens somewhere.

Thanks again for all your information! This has been quite informative and a lot of fun!

Drew

The engraved numbers on the inside are, or should be, a match on the focusing part as well as the optical cell. This is the way the lens was calibrated. The three little feet are an aid to unscrew ltm adapters.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Drew,

If Leitz had replaced the front ring on this lens they would have engraved the original serial number on the new ring & kept the damaged old ring.

If someone else, not Leitz, had changed the ring they might not have engraved the original serial number on the replacement ring.

The front & back caps might be academically interesting but they are not reflective, 1 way or the other, about the lens that they are on. Front & back caps come & go & are often switched around among various lenses.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited June 14, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[drew.saunders]

Thanks again everyone for helping me with this conundrum. It would appear that I need to go to Leitz Park with my lens and see if I can baffle the good people at Leica with my mystery missing serial number, even though it was probably the result of a non-factory repair job.

I think I'll have to get a better photo of the front of this lens for my avatar image for this forum now!

Drew

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Drew,

That would make a nice avatar.

If you bring this to Leica in Leitz Park they MIGHT simply replace it with a properly engraved ring & then keep the ring you have now.

You might bring this up in the Collector & Historica Section & see what some people there think. If you do this it might be a good idea to reference back to this Thread to shorten the necessity for other people there to deal with some of the issues that we have already discussed here. Not everybody reads every Section on this Forum & there are people there who might not read this Section but, who might know more about missing serial numbers.

It might be interesting.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited June 14, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht