Leica M10 MM durability and toughness

[Rupert Greenwell]

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The digital M body can be very tough if you are lucky as I was, I was shot at about 30 metres range with a 12 gauge shot gun, two pellets struck my M10 P which I was carrying across my chest. I was knocked over backwards and carried off to hospital having been hit with about 17 pellets.

 The camera was still working and the rangefinder did not need any attention. The two pellets just missed the lens and were embedded but did not break through the metal case of the camera,  I have not mended so well but I am very lucky to be alive with a pellet in the back of my eye which bounced downwards off my eye socket. The other holes all mended.

The person who does my camera repairs is a very experienced with Leicas and has repaired many for journalists, soldiers and spies who have been in all sorts of scrapes all over the world. He has always rated them as being tough and capable of taking knocks . He likes to see them well used and bearing a few scars !

[TomB_tx]

People seem most concerned about the "delicacy" of the rangefinder, but I've used Leicas for over 50 years, and only once had an RF go out of calibration. That was my M9, and I suspect my clumsiness with a DR Summicron was the cause. My M4 went over 40 years without any service - and has had one CLA since then - mainly because I worried about technicians retiring...

The M10 RF should be at least as rugged. The shutter and electronics don't have a long track record to evaluate, but that's true of all digital cameras.

[mujk]

The M10 is actually very rugged mechanically. I have managed to drop mine twice on a hard surface with only a few very small marks on some edges as a result. The rangefinder is still perfectly calibrated. But the M10 is only moderately well protected against water, particularly the lenses and the lens mount.

When it comes to reliability, the M10 can of course break like any other electronic device. Also some shutter failures and lockup problems have been reported. No major design or manufacturing flaws have been uncovered so far. You can find more information in various threads on this forum.

I would still recommend some sort of emergency backup camera on longer trips.

[Shu_downunder]

16 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

as long as long you like the the viewfinder and the rangefinder focusing

Thanks for the information. 
Regards whether I like rangefinder indeed this is what I need to find out now. 
 

As these is very limited places and also expensive to rent a M in Melbourne, do you have any suggestions on how I can do it?

Edited April 8, 2021 by Shu_downunder

[Shu_downunder]

15 hours ago, Rupert Greenwell said:

The digital M body can be very tough if you are lucky as I was, I was shot at about 30 metres range with a 12 gauge shot gun, two pellets struck my M10 P which I was carrying across my chest. I was knocked over backwards and carried off to hospital having been hit with about 17 pellets.

 The camera was still working and the rangefinder did not need any attention. The two pellets just missed the lens and were embedded but did not break through the metal case of the camera,  I have not mended so well but I am very lucky to be alive with a pellet in the back of my eye which bounced downwards off my eye socket. The other holes all mended.

The person who does my camera repairs is a very experienced with Leicas and has repaired many for journalists, soldiers and spies who have been in all sorts of scrapes all over the world. He has always rated them as being tough and capable of taking knocks . He likes to see them well used and bearing a few scars !

This is legendary story but suffering and terrible experience. I’m glad that you and your camera are telling this safe and sound. 

[Shu_downunder]

13 hours ago, TomB_tx said:

People seem most concerned about the "delicacy" of the rangefinder, but I've used Leicas for over 50 years, and only once had an RF go out of calibration. That was my M9, and I suspect my clumsiness with a DR Summicron was the cause. My M4 went over 40 years without any service - and has had one CLA since then - mainly because I worried about technicians retiring...

The M10 RF should be at least as rugged. The shutter and electronics don't have a long track record to evaluate, but that's true of all digital cameras.

Lasting for decades became almost impossible for a digital camera, even it’s a M. That’s a sad thing. 

[Guest Nowhereman]

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3 hours ago, Shu_downunder said:

Thanks for the information. 
Regards whether I like rangefinder indeed this is what I need to find out now. 
As these is very limited places and also expensive to rent a M in Melbourne, do you have any suggestions on how I can do it?

Unless you can try a friend's camera, I've no idea. All I can do is to tell you my experience. Years ago, going out on my first real job for two years to Uganda, I bought a Nikon F after having considered it carefully against an Asahi Pentax. I loved the beauty of the large viewfinder image on the Nikon's SLR ground-glass: when you pointed it at the subject you saw the image at f/1.4 of the 50mm lens, and you could press a button to see how the DOF would look at the shooting aperture. A rugged and reliable camera, I liked it a ot.

After a year, when I got back for a couple of week's leave, my father gave me his Leica IIIc together with a 35 and a 50 mm lens; and I bought a used 135. I loved the small size of the IIIc, which I could stick in a pocket with the 35 mm lens, or with the collapsible 50 mm. But what I found was that my photography improved when I started using the IIIc.

It wasn't that the Leica lenses were better than the ones for the Nikon F,  but that the Leica IIIc forced me to look more with my eyes and to shoot with more consideration: with the Nikon I would bring the camera up to my eye and then search for the subject; with the Leica, I was looking more with my eyes at the scenery, at the subject, and bringing the camera up to my eye only when I had decided to shoot, and was framing more carefully because it was more difficult to use the two little windows for viewing and for focusing. But with having to consider more things with my eyes, my photography improved a lot.

Eventually, I went back to the Nikon F, because I liked having a TTL light meter; but when I saw a Leica M6, with its built-in light meter for the first time in 1988, I got that; and then stuck with Leica-M cameras thereafter.
_______________________________________
Frog Leaping photobook and Instagram 

[Shu_downunder]

25 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

Unless you can try a friend's camera, I've no idea. All I can do is to tell you my experience. Years ago, going out on my first real job for two years to Uganda, I bought a Nikon F after having considered it carefully against an Asahi Pentax. I loved the beauty of the large viewfinder image on the Nikon's SLR ground-glass: when you pointed it at the subject you saw the image at f/1.4 of the 50mm lens, and you could press a button to see how the DOF would look at the shooting aperture. A rugged and reliable camera, I liked it a ot.

After a year, when I got back for a couple of week's leave, my father gave me his Leica IIIc together with a 35 and a 50 mm lens; and I bought a used 135. I loved the small size of the IIIc, which I could stick in a pocket with the 35 mm lens, or with the collapsible 50 mm. But what I found was that my photography improved when I started using the IIIc.

It wasn't that the Leica lenses were better than the ones for the Nikon F,  but that the Leica IIIc forced me to look more with my eyes and to shoot with more consideration: with the Nikon I would bring the camera up to my eye and then search for the subject; with the Leica, I was looking more with my eyes at the scenery, at the subject, and bringing the camera up to my eye only when I had decided to shoot, and was framing more carefully because it was more difficult to use the two little windows for viewing and for focusing. But with having to consider more things with my eyes, my photography improved a lot.

Eventually, I went back to the Nikon F, because I liked having a TTL light meter; but when I saw a Leica M6, with its built-in light meter for the first time in 1988, I got that; and then stuck with Leica-M cameras thereafter.
_______________________________________
Frog Leaping photobook and Instagram 

Thank you so much for sharing the valuable experience. 

[ravinj]

This is for the OP. Copy/paste of texts from a person I sold my M10 to. Bottom line, no camera is "bulletproof".

I just got back from Mexico and it won't turn on , I suspect condensation and damp air may have affected it 

Simply wondering from

you if it is still under warranty , unlikely but possible !!

Any idea ??

thanks

I suggested he take it to Leica NJ:

So , I said I would get back to you 
I drove out to Leica NJ and luckily they took the camera from me , that was a struggle but head of customer relations was sweet 
The camera is not able to tolerate heavy humidity , it was damaged internally and replacing the sensor Will run me $2,350

Ouch 

But better than saying goodbye which is what would have happened had I not drove out there , another few days and it would have been totaled 

Thanks for your helpful nature 

I was in Tulum when Zeta was brewing off shore , it was close to hurricane force 1 but never hit shore 

The air was very humid for 34 hours , but it was never in the rain , yet I stayed in an eco friendly lodge so no AC . . 

I was shocked also , just wanted you to know there is a tolerance for this weather 

I'll check out the above later 

Thanks mate 

End of story.

[Shu_downunder]

9 hours ago, ravinj said:

This is for the OP. Copy/paste of texts from a person I sold my M10 to. Bottom line, no camera is "bulletproof".

I just got back from Mexico and it won't turn on , I suspect condensation and damp air may have affected it 

Simply wondering from

you if it is still under warranty , unlikely but possible !!

Any idea ??

thanks

I suggested he take it to Leica NJ:

So , I said I would get back to you 
I drove out to Leica NJ and luckily they took the camera from me , that was a struggle but head of customer relations was sweet 
The camera is not able to tolerate heavy humidity , it was damaged internally and replacing the sensor Will run me $2,350

Ouch 

But better than saying goodbye which is what would have happened had I not drove out there , another few days and it would have been totaled 

Thanks for your helpful nature 

I was in Tulum when Zeta was brewing off shore , it was close to hurricane force 1 but never hit shore 

The air was very humid for 34 hours , but it was never in the rain , yet I stayed in an eco friendly lodge so no AC . . 

I was shocked also , just wanted you to know there is a tolerance for this weather 

I'll check out the above later 

Thanks mate 

End of story.

Thanks for sharing.

I know it’s not fair to require Leica camera, even pre-digital ones to last forever. But there is very few tools that has been used to created so many histories and stories linking to humanity like Leica has. And the anticipation to it has been further consolidated by the high price tag. 

As first time buyers, we naturally want to find as many points as possible to justify the decision. 

Actually for me personally the requirements are straight forward:

- I need a decent camera that is really lightweight and compact. Decent means full frame, good image quality. Lightweight means a body and a lens, filters, spare batteries and charger etc altogether no more than 1250g. Compact means can be within my arm reach in all situations, in car, walking, in cafe, on a slow boat, in an airplane etc. 
- I need it to survive a 6 month long trip without any professional service. 
 

I really can’t find anything else but a M. Please do give me some advice if you know or have experiences on other cameras. 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Shu_downunder

[frame-it]

33 minutes ago, Shu_downunder said:

I need a decent camera that is really lightweight and compact. Decent means full frame, good image quality. Lightweight means a body and a lens, filters, spare batteries and charger etc altogether no more than 1250g. Compact means can be within my arm reach in all situations, in car, walking, in cafe, on a slow boat, in an airplane etc. 
- I need it to survive a 6 month long trip without any professional service. 
 

I really can’t find anything else but a M. Please do give me some advice if you know or have experiences on other cameras. 

A recently serviced M3 [if you're ok with film]

otherwise any fixed lens camera with your favorite focal length, or a Vlux 114[not FF]

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by frame-it

[Guest Nowhereman]

9 hours ago, ravinj said:

...The camera is not able to tolerate heavy humidity , it was damaged internally and replacing the sensor Will run me $2,350...
I was in Tulum when Zeta was brewing off shore , it was close to hurricane force 1 but never hit shore The air was very humid for 34 hours , but it was never in the rain...

What exactly is "heavy humidity"? I have regularly used my M10 for months without any problems in the rainy season in Bangkok, where it is very humid: so humid that, when you step out of an air-conditioned car, the camera gets condensation all over it. Leica's website states that the M10 has protection against light showers, dust and bad weather, provided by special rubber seals: scroll down to the section "Perfectly equipped to withstand light showers" on this page.
_______________________________________
Frog Leaping photobook and Instagram

Edited April 9, 2021 by Nowhereman

[Shu_downunder]

47 minutes ago, frame-it said:

A recently serviced M3 [if you're ok with film]

I'm more than ok with film. But traveling for 6 months with film only is not feasible.

50 minutes ago, frame-it said:

otherwise any fixed lens camera with your favorite focal length, or a Vlux 114[not FF]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I though consumer camera like 114 is for snap shot instead of photographing. Well snap shot is a kind of photographing. But you know what I mean.

Other fixed lens camera are 

Q2 - it's an option

x100v - it's an option

rx1r ii, menu is a mass, low battery performance. 

griii, has some drawback.

[ravinj]

1 hour ago, Nowhereman said:

What exactly is "heavy humidity"? I have regularly used my M10 for months without any problems in the rainy season in Bangkok, where it is very humid: so humid that, when you step out of an air-conditioned car, the camera gets condensation all over it. Leica's website states that the M10 has protection against light showers, dust and bad weather, provided by special rubber seals: scroll down to the section "Perfectly equipped to withstand light showers" on this page.
_______________________________________
Frog Leaping photobook and Instagram

I have no idea, I passed along a data point to the OP just like you did.

Edit: there are no seals on the M lens mount. What is light shower? How many mm? 5,000? 10,000? At what angle?  

Edited April 9, 2021 by ravinj

[ravinj]

29 minutes ago, Shu_downunder said:

I'm more than ok with film. But traveling for 6 months with film only is not feasible.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I though consumer camera like 114 is for snap shot instead of photographing. Well snap shot is a kind of photographing. But you know what I mean.

Other fixed lens camera are 

Q2 - it's an option

x100v - it's an option

rx1r ii, menu is a mass, low battery performance. 

griii, has some drawback.

I can see your point about "consumer camera for snapshots instead of photography" but on the other hand, not all Leica camera users are producing fine art images. I have the Sony RX100VI and it is a very competent tool for what it does at the price point you can get it (I got mine used). Even at 200MM results can be hard to believe at times with its "small" sensor and the fact that a 24-200 lens is crammed into a body with EVF that can be carried all day without being weighed down. 

I have used RX1R (not II) - excellent IQ, but bad ergonomics. I would skip.

Q2 is my favorite and I could have that as my sole camera for rugged use + RX100VI for backup / tele shots. A perfect lightweight combo, esp. for long mountain hikes where every gram counts, which I do very often. I would say the same about the Q (24MP) - the lens/sensor combo can easily surpass most cameras with higher MP and it is built to survive quite a few drops and drenches - I say this from first hand experience.

Why not consider a used M240. Yes, it is "fat" and weighs more than the M10, but its battery life is superb and so is the IQ. I see some used ones available for prices that are a steal for a digital M.

Rangefinder accuracy and ability to absorb an occasional hard knock without it getting out of alignment improved a lot with the M240 and higher. With my M9 it wasn't as great. With the M240 it was a revelation to me that 35 and 50 Summiluxes could be focused wide open as accurately with the rangefinder as with an EVF. I much prefer the M240 over the M10 (I had both), battery life being one of the reasons.

Edited April 9, 2021 by ravinj

[Herr Barnack]

On 4/7/2021 at 12:54 AM, Shu_downunder said:

...What I couldn’t found online, which is also very important to me, is it’s durability and toughness level. 

I’m not going to abuse it, of course, but is it tough enough for daily use for at least 10 years?

I might occasionally shot in light rain, I might bring it to a long trip that last for 6 months without a backup, I might bring it to the beach with kids. I need to use it as a tool. 

Can it survive all these without too much of factory service?...

is it tough enough for daily use for at least 10 years?  Yes.

... light rain...  It will be fine. Sprinkles = not a problem.  Medium rain = iffy.  Downpour = Don't try it.

...I might bring it to a long trip that last for 6 months without a backup...  Just exercise reasonable, normal care and precautions.

I might bring it to the beach with kids = keep the sand away from the camera and lens and they will be fine.  Don't lay the camera on a beach towel on the sand - the sand could easily get into the nooks & crannies.  What I would do for taking an M camera to the beach is this:  Get a dry bag and keep the camera sealed up in it when you are not using it.  Keep sand out of the dry bag and do not put other items in the bag that have been in or near the sand.  Get the camera out, make your photos, and put it back in the dry bag and seal it up.  Some people might think that's a hassle; JMHO but it's not too much of a hassle to protect a $9000 USD camera and a $4000+ USD lens.  I would recommend a SealLine Baja bag.  There are a lot of dry bags on the market these days but IMHO SealLine are the best: https://www.amazon.com/SealLine-040818096994-Baja-Dry-Bag/dp/B01N0TLPSZ?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1&psc=1

Can it survive all these without too much of factory service? Yes.

Bottom line:   M cameras are not nearly as fragile as some people think they are; costly does not equal fragile.  Just be vigilant to not drop your M, as the rangefinder can be knocked out of alignment which would require a trip to Leica for realignment.  Don't try to use it in a downpour, and keep it safe from sand. 

Oh, and don't have a motorcycle crash when wearing your Leica:  http://rideearth.net/2016/05/04/leica-m-the-full-review/

 

[Shu_downunder]

19 minutes ago, ravinj said:

I can see your point about "consumer camera for snapshots instead of photography" but on the other hand, not all Leica camera users are producing fine art images. I have the Sony RX100VI and it is a very competent tool for what it does at the price point you can get it (I got mine used). Even at 200MM results can be hard to believe at times with its "small" sensor and the fact that a 24-200 lens is crammed into a body with EVF that can be carried all day without being weighed down. 

I have used RX1R (not II) - excellent IQ, but bad ergonomics. I would skip.

Q2 is my favorite and I could have that as my sole camera for rugged use + RX100VI for backup / tele shots. A perfect lightweight combo, esp. for long mountain hikes where every gram counts, which I do very often. I would say the same about the Q (24MP) - the lens/sensor combo can easily surpass most cameras with higher MP and it is built to survive quite a few drops and drenches - I say this from first hand experience.

Why not consider a used M240. Yes, it is "fat" and weighs more than the M10, but its battery life is superb and so is the IQ. I see some used ones available for prices that are a steal for a digital M.

Rangefinder accuracy and ability to absorb an occasional hard knock without it getting out of alignment improved a lot with the M240 and higher. With my M9 it wasn't as great. With the M240 it was a revelation to me that 35 and 50 Summiluxes could be focused wide open as accurately with the rangefinder as with an EVF. I much prefer the M240 over the M10 (I had both), battery life being one of the reasons.

Well, thanks a lot for these experience sharing. That really helps. 

 

6 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

is it tough enough for daily use for at least 10 years?  Yes.

... light rain...  It will be fine. Sprinkles = not a problem.  Medium rain = iffy.  Downpour = Don't try it.

...I might bring it to a long trip that last for 6 months without a backup...  Just exercise reasonable, normal care and precautions.

I might bring it to the beach with kids = keep the sand away from the camera and lens and they will be fine.  Don't lay the camera on a beach towel on the sand - the sand could easily get into the nooks & crannies.  What I would do for taking an M camera to the beach is this:  Get a dry bag and keep the camera sealed up in it when you are not using it.  Keep sand out of the dry bag and do not put other items in the bag that have been in or near the sand.  Get the camera out, make your photos, and put it back in the dry bag and seal it up.  Some people might think that's a hassle; JMHO but it's not too much of a hassle to protect a $9000 USD camera and a $4000+ USD lens.  I would recommend a SealLine Baja bag.  There are a lot of dry bags on the market these days but IMHO SealLine are the best: https://www.amazon.com/SealLine-040818096994-Baja-Dry-Bag/dp/B01N0TLPSZ?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1&psc=1

Can it survive all these without too much of factory service? Yes.

Bottom line:   M cameras are not nearly as fragile as some people think they are; costly does not equal fragile.  Just be vigilant to not drop your M, as the rangefinder can be knocked out of alignment which would require a trip to Leica for realignment.  Don't try to use it in a downpour, and keep it safe from sand. 

Oh, and don't have a motorcycle crash when wearing your Leica:  http://rideearth.net/2016/05/04/leica-m-the-full-review/

 

Thanks for the tips and information. Much appreciated. 

[Shu_downunder]

11 hours ago, ravinj said:

Why not consider a used M240

I'm now starting to seriously consider M240, thank you!

Lack of ISO dial (set it to auto with restriction so it's ok), maybe slightly worse weather seal, older software (poorer high ISO noise control), fatter(as a first time M user I don't have any muscle memory of older M's anyway)，slow start up, freezing issues. 

I think I can live with all above, in return, almost identical image to M10 and almost half the cost. And the good thing is the video function is what I need occasionally. 

Have I missed anything?

Edited April 10, 2021 by Shu_downunder

[ravinj]

36 minutes ago, Shu_downunder said:

I'm now starting to seriously consider M240, thank you!

Lack of ISO dial (set it to auto with restriction so it's ok), maybe slightly worse weather seal, older software (poorer high ISO noise control), fatter(as a first time M user I don't have any muscle memory of older M's anyway)，slow start up, freezing issues. 

I think I can live with all above, in return, almost identical image to M10 and almost half the cost. And the good thing is the video function is what I need occasionally. 

Have I missed anything?

Lack of ISO dial (set it to auto with restriction so it's ok) -> This is a personal preference. It never bothered me though.

Maybe slightly worse weather seal --> Neither M240 nor M10 are designed to survive a downpour, nor do they have any formal IP rating. I would call that a wash, Leica's marketing literature claims not withstanding.

Older software (poorer high ISO noise control) --> My use case is restricted to ISO 1600 or less. However, I have seen examples of ISO 3200 comparisons with the M10 and they seem similar. With proper handholding technique, you can go below traditional 1/f rule on the M240 and M10 and keep ISO low. I never understood why I can't seem to achieve the same with other cameras, maybe it is just the ergonomics of the M cameras that make it happen.

Slow start up, freezing issues --> Happened once with my M240 in three years. Also with M10.

Almost identical image to M10 and almost half the cost --> Yes. Though the marketing machine will make you want to believe the opposite.

Have I missed anything? --> M240 has much superior battery life. You covered cost already, but not depreciation. M240 is at a floor (almost), not much to lose if buying 2nd hand from a reliable party. Used EVF if needed can be had for the M240 for less than $100 (Olympus VF-2) vs $450+ Visoflex 020 for the M10. 

Go with the M240. Use the money saved over M10 for lenses. Sell if you don't like at no major loss.

Or, just get a used Leica Q and call it a day. You may be pleasantly surprised. There is something to be said for the ability to nail shots precisely, not fiddle with lens changes and get equally beautiful images.

Edited April 10, 2021 by ravinj

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Shu_downunder]

7 minutes ago, ravinj said:

Lack of ISO dial (set it to auto with restriction so it's ok) -> This is a personal preference. It never bothered me though.

Maybe slightly worse weather seal --> Neither M240 nor M10 are designed to survive a downpour, nor do they have any formal IP rating. I would call that a wash, Leica's marketing literature claims not withstanding.

Older software (poorer high ISO noise control) --> My use case is restricted to ISO 1600 or less. However, I have seen examples of ISO 3200 comparisons with the M10 and they seem similar. With proper handholding technique, you can go below traditional 1/f rule on the M240 and M10 and keep ISO low. I never understood why I can't seem to achieve the same with other cameras, maybe it is just the ergonomics of the M cameras that make it happen.

Slow start up, freezing issues --> Happened once with my M240 in three years. Also with M10.

Almost identical image to M10 and almost half the cost --> Yes. Though the marketing machine will make you want to believe the opposite.

Have I missed anything? --> M240 has much superior battery life. You covered cost already, but not depreciation. M240 is at a floor (almost), not much to lose if buying 2nd hand from a reliable party. Used EVF if needed can be had for the M240 for less than $100 (Olympus VF-2) vs $450+ Visoflex 020 for the M10. 

Go with the M240. Use the money saved over M10 for lenses. Sell if you don't like at no major loss.

Or, just get a used Leica Q and call it a day. You may be pleasantly surprised.

Thanks for the comments on each of these items @ravinj.

I might just focus on M240 so I can make use of my R lenses as well.😀