Film M cameras w/ single 35mm frame line

[Dennis]

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13 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

For me it feels the most natural and intuitive camera/lens combination of all, perfect for general street/travel photography.

But others will disagree so you need to try it for yourself.

Yes, it looks like it's the smartest choice for a 35mm shooters. It makes totally sense. But I would love to try out an M4 and any 0.58x VF, then make my own conclusion.

 

[pippy]

3 hours ago, Dennis said:

...I've lost somehow my reply for you a few days ago 🤦‍♂️ Not sure why. Anyway...Do you still have and use the camera? How does it feel to shoot an M2 w/ a 35mm?...And for last, are you ok with the film loading?...

No worries regarding the reply, Dennis! Yes; I still have the camera. Using M2 with 35mm is Very 'Natural' although back then I was mainly a 50mm chap. Loading is child's play.

I'll send a PM...

Philip.

[plaidshirts]

On 3/25/2021 at 2:11 PM, Dennis said:

Thank you!

Yes, a focus patch "unchanged" (or almost) would be  very welcome. 

Finally got the .58 today and I'm pleased to report the focus patch looks big and clear to me.

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35mm frame line .58 VF

50/75mm frame line .85 VF. The upgraded MP VF does seem to be brighter.

Edited March 28, 2021 by plaidshirts

[Dennis]

18 minutes ago, plaidshirts said:

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35mm frame line .58 VF

Thank you so much for sharing. 

My feelings right now are two: 1.It's smaller than the expected, I'm wasting the VF, go for a 0.72, it's just perfect. 2.It's exactly what to expect: it looks like a 50 frame lines of a 0.72x. Great for sunglasses, spectacles, a wider overall frame, and still very powerful. 🤔

It would be hard for me to make the right choice before trying both VF magnifications in person. 

P.s. And it's single 35mm frame line 🤔

Edited March 28, 2021 by Dennis
forgot the PS

[pgk]

9 hours ago, Dennis said:

My feelings right now are two: 1.It's smaller than the expected, I'm wasting the VF,.....

Seeing around the frame is one of the great benefits of the rf viewfinder. I don't look on the excess os a waste but more of a way of seeing the area that I am photographing in its greater context. It is about making choices in my book.

[a.noctilux]

Dennis, there is no "perfect VF" (or whatelse, anyway).

Kind of compromises.

35mm on M is just the "worse" (but I do like the field of view ) concerning VF magnification.

I never use 0.58 VF (or only long ago Minolta CLE + 28/40/90 very practical combo) as for me 0.72 is sweet spot for most of my M practice.

0.85 VF is quite usable with 35mm but more comfort with 50mm and longer.

[Mute-on]

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I bought a 0.58 MP in about 2004 or so because I wanted to be able to view the 28 mm framelines without difficulty. I don’t wear glasses, but even with the 0,58, the 28mm framelines are at the limit of the visible view. 

With the M2, the 35 framelines fill the viewfinder, but are not against the edges. With the 0.58 MP the 35mm framelines are easily visible, and have a nice amount of “breathing room”, but are not really optimal unless you wear glasses and can’t use the 0.72 viewfinder for a 35mm. Really, the 0.58 is for 28mm, or glasses wearers. 

The most accurate and clear 35mm framelines for one who does not need prescription glasses are in the M2. That’s basically all there is to say. 

[plaidshirts]

14 hours ago, Dennis said:

Thank you so much for sharing. 

My feelings right now are two: 1.It's smaller than the expected, I'm wasting the VF, go for a 0.72, it's just perfect. 2.It's exactly what to expect: it looks like a 50 frame lines of a 0.72x. Great for sunglasses, spectacles, a wider overall frame, and still very powerful. 🤔

It would be hard for me to make the right choice before trying both VF magnifications in person. 

P.s. And it's single 35mm frame line 🤔

Not quite. My phone is seeing what a non-glasses wearing person would be seeing. There is quite a bit less space around the frame lines - the perfect amount IMHO. 
You should definitely see for yourself before making a decision as everyone’s expectations and tolerances will be different.

Good luck!

[Dennis]

7 hours ago, Mute-on said:

Really, the 0.58 is for 28mm, or glasses wearers. 

The most accurate and clear 35mm framelines for one who does not need prescription glasses are in the M2. That’s basically all there is to say. 

I see

8 hours ago, pgk said:

Seeing around the frame is one of the great benefits of the rf viewfinder.

Yes, completely agree.

3 hours ago, plaidshirts said:

You should definitely see for yourself before making a decision as everyone’s expectations and tolerances will be different.

Correct. These are the things that one need to see in person, and in a few seconds, one should be able to make a decision.

-

I think everything is on pause until next camera hands-on 🙂

But I'm happy I understood a lot with this thread.

[logan2z]

Five pages into this thread, it's safe to say you may be suffering from analysis paralysis. 

It sounds like the M2 will suit your needs, but you probably won't know for sure until you buy one and try it for a while.  If it turns out you don't like it I'm sure you'll be able to sell it for what you paid and put that money towards a different model. 

There's no substitute for actually shooting with a camera in order to know whether or not it works for you.

[a.noctilux]

Dennis, while waiting, you have already one of the best VF in Leica M team.

I think you will (would) be unhappy with older M ( when one is not dedicated to M2/M3 loading process not hard but "rapid loading" of M4 and later M is there for reason),

In the past, I was ennoying with the "nail counter reset" of M2 (nail not too long or too short), keep pushing the rewind button M2 while rewinding film was some habits to learn as "slow pic taking".

With M2/M4 , the eyepiece is less comfortable with 12mm wide in place of 14mm ( x0.73 to be precise, even if 0.01 more can be perceived as "much more", I don't know why).

Contrast (on my old M2/M4 units) and brightness bettered (by far in contrast) by M-A which for me the best VF in M.

I have two of those, one "button" and one "lever"

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by a.noctilux

[pippy]

1 hour ago, a.noctilux said:

...I think you will (would) be unhappy with older M ( when one is not dedicated to M2/M3 loading process not hard but "rapid loading" of M4 and later M is there for reason),

In the past, I was ennoying with the "nail counter reset" of M2 (nail not too long or too short), keep pushing the rewind button M2 while rewinding film was some habits to learn as "slow pic taking"...

Hi Dennis!

I think Arnaud makes a number of good points here. The M2 does not having a self-zeroing (-2 actually) frame counter. The M4 has a far more straightforward loading routine. Rewinding with an M4 is far quicker.

Trivia aside a wise person once wrote;

"I feel the M2 is the one it makes sense for me. The M4 the one I like more"

I'd say go with the one you like! Doing so will put you in a happier place and your images will probably reflect that happiness. JMO.

Philip.

[Dennis]

3 hours ago, logan2z said:

Five pages into this thread, it's safe to say you may be suffering from analysis paralysis. 

It sounds like the M2 will suit your needs, but you probably won't know for sure until you buy one and try it for a while.  If it turns out you don't like it I'm sure you'll be able to sell it for what you paid and put that money towards a different model. 

There's no substitute for actually shooting with a camera in order to know whether or not it works for you.

You're totally right. It's a lot of remote analysis. I need to travel abroad to find a store-retailer with M gear, and it's not the right time to travel. That's why, while waiting, I super study... Just theory, until I'll embrace the hands-on experience, the one that matters.

3 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Dennis, while waiting, you have already one of the best VF in Leica M team.

I think you will (would) be unhappy with older M ( when one is not dedicated to M2/M3 loading process not hard but "rapid loading" of M4 and later M is there for reason),

 

I know, the M10 is incredible. And loving the M system, I'm happy to try the film experience too. I can only imagine. I can accept M2 and M4 for what they are. I'm ready 🙂
I also thought that a brand new M-A (besides being very expensive) could be a good investment in the long term. 

[Dennis]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

Trivia aside a wise person once wrote;

"I feel the M2 is the one it makes sense for me. The M4 the one I like more"

I'd say go with the one you like! Doing so will put you in a happier place and your images will probably reflect that happiness.

 I want to know this wise person! I feel exactly the same. Send me the link, please, lol.
I hope the M2 doesn't get offended, it was not my intention, and mine are just assumptions 🙏  I hope soon I'll know the truth. 🙂 
Happier, better images. I agree with you.

-

For last. How much folks, do you think a used M4 should average cost? Not limited edition, or the expensive black chrome (not sure). I mean the average regular M4 price. Just to have some parameters in mind. I know a "standard" M2 silver or black repaint should be in the $1,500-$2,500 range, right?

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Dennis

[ktmrider2]

You can get both a chrome M2 and a chrome M4 for the price of an MA and still have a couple thousand dollars left over.  My mint black chrome 50th anniversary M4 was $3000 last October and my chrome M2 was $1200 or so a few years ago.  Therefore I have the best of both worlds and still saved approximately $1100 over a new MA.  Are either of my cameras new-no!  Will they last as long as a current Leica film camera?  Probably as long as CLA's/parts are available.  I may be wrong but I suspect the major components of all three cameras are interchangeable (shutter or viewfinder parts for instance).

Both the chrome M2 and chrome M4 should be about equal in cost.  My guess was $1200-1400 but I have noticed a trend in prices upward in film Leica camera and a quick check of prices at Tamarkin show M2's going for $1700-1900 and M4's about the same so prices have increased a bit in the past year.  A quick check of Classic Connection and Igor's show Tamarkin's prices a bit on the high side but neither Igor's or Classic Connection has the used inventory currently at Tamarkin.  You saw the black repaint M2 for $1799 at Classic Connection and it is still there.  I do not know about Igor or Classic Connection but all of Tamarkins used inventory come with a current CLA so you should not need another for years (decades perhaps).  I would not buy a camera from eBay but I would buy from the classified ads on rangefinderforum.com.  Leica films bodies come up there for sale frequently.  

As far as film loading and rewind, the MP and MA both rewind film at the same speed as a fifty five year old M2.  Leica says the traditional rewind is stronger and less prone to damage.  I am somewhat cynical and think they were reintroduced for nostalgia.  The M4 was the first Leica which introduced the rapid loading feature of all subsequent M film bodies.  However, if you really need quick film loading you can purchase a couple extra film loading spools on eBay and carry them around in your pocket (I suspect that would be the fastest solution of all).  

As we say about most choices in a capitalist system, "You pays your money and makes your choice!!".

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by ktmrider2

[pgk]

2 hours ago, ktmrider2 said:

I do not know about Igor or Classic Connection but all of Tamarkins used inventory come with a current CLA so you should not need another for years (decades perhaps).  I would not buy a camera from eBay but I would buy from the classified ads on rangefinderforum.com.

Some years ago the prices of older M cameras dropped to below £500 for a time. Dealers were reticent about buying and selling them because the cost of any warranty repairs would have made them uneconomic at such prices. Now prices are higher and if you buy from a reputable dealer, such a camera should have had a CLA or come with a decent warranty (in the UK this varies from 3 moths to a year - I would go with the year even at a somewhat higher price myself). BUT buying privately should also mean that, unless there has been a recent CLA and the seller has the evidence of this, the camera may need a CLA and carries no warranty, and should be priced accordingly - but often people ask unrealistic prices. This is also why buying from eBay is fraught with problems. All the cameras under discussion are nearly 50 years old or more. Unless they have had a recent CLA one will more than likely be needed.

In another thread I said that higher prices of older film cameras actually makes them viable in that it means that they are once more economic propositions. This has certainly applied to Leica M cameras so I would take my time looking and deciding exactly what I wanted and where to buy from and for how much, before buying.

My suspicion is also that the M4 has yet to rise in price to its potential level, but that's just my personal idea and I may be very wrong. M3s are most plentiful, M2s less so and M4s a bit less than M2s so that's my basis alng with it being of slightly higher specification and not as old .....

[Dennis]

9 hours ago, ktmrider2 said:

You can get both a chrome M2 and a chrome M4 for the price of an MA and still have a couple thousand dollars left over.  My mint black chrome 50th anniversary M4 was $3000 last October and my chrome M2 was $1200 or so a few years ago.  Therefore I have the best of both worlds and still saved approximately $1100 over a new MA.  

Good news, glad to know it.

9 hours ago, ktmrider2 said:

 I do not know about Igor or Classic Connection but all of Tamarkins used inventory come with a current CLA so you should not need another for years (decades perhaps).  I would not buy a camera from eBay but I would buy from the classified ads on rangefinderforum.com.  Leica films bodies come up there for sale frequently.  

It makes sense. I'll be sure it has CLA or do it before to buy, just in case. For an film M camera, usually how much time they need for a CLA service? Hours, days, weeks?

And how much should a standard CLA cost? For film camera, and of course pretending no extra or missing parts needed. Only C+L+A

6 hours ago, pgk said:

Now prices are higher and if you buy from a reputable dealer, such a camera should have had a CLA or come with a decent warranty (in the UK this varies from 3 moths to a year - I would go with the year even at a somewhat higher price myself). BUT buying privately should also mean that, unless there has been a recent CLA and the seller has the evidence of this, the camera may need a CLA and carries no warranty, and should be priced accordingly - but often people ask unrealistic prices. This is also why buying from eBay is fraught with problems. All the cameras under discussion are nearly 50 years old or more. Unless they have had a recent CLA one will more than likely be needed.

Thank you. Agree. For a camera that have 50 years or more, I guess the CLA make you sleep well. And with a small warranty, much better and safe.

 

 

[ktmrider2]

Time needed for a CLA really depends on the technician.  Stories about of DAG being backed up for a couple months while I have had M2's CLA''ed by YeYe and returned within two weeks which included shipping both ways.  Have never used DAG but YeYe and Sherry are my go-to's and YeYe is the best for responses to emails.  He has often replied within a couple hours.

Cost for a CLA is usually $200-300 and again varies by technician.  For the M5, things go to Sherry no questions asked.  For my other M cameras I think both YeYe and Golden Touch Leica (Sherry) are good but prefer YeYe as he responds to email.  Sherry is catch as catch can and can be abrupt depending on her mood (Having said that we have also talked for more then an hour on a variety of subjects besides Leica).

Honestly, I would not schedule a camera for a CLA until I have put a couple rolls through it checking out shutter speeds and focusing.  Often the previous owner saved you the problem.  And hundreds of rolls of film can go through a Leica before it needs readjustment.

[logan2z]

19 minutes ago, ktmrider2 said:

Honestly, I would not schedule a camera for a CLA until I have put a couple rolls through it checking out shutter speeds and focusing

Unless there's some documentation of a prior CLA, I assume that one hasn't been done.  The camera may be fine, but when buying a 50+ year old camera with no documented service, I prefer to spend a few $$$ to get it serviced by a well-known Leica expert (like YYe) before burning rolls of film and chemical/lab processing costs.  This may seem like a waste of money to some, but I'd rather start my ownership with a camera that I know isn't going to fail on me soon after I start to use it.

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[Dennis]

3 hours ago, ktmrider2 said:

Time needed for a CLA really depends on the technician.  

Cost for a CLA is usually $200-300 and again varies by technician.  

Honestly, I would not schedule a camera for a CLA until I have put a couple rolls through it checking out shutter speeds and focusing.  Often the previous owner saved you the problem.  And hundreds of rolls of film can go through a Leica before it needs readjustment.

 

2 hours ago, logan2z said:

Unless there's some documentation of a prior CLA,

 

 This seems to be the best and intelligent practice. If you buy the camera in a trusty place/store, which in the first place offers a CLA (included), I think it is the best scenario. It doesn't matter if the previous owner or the seller did it. As long there is a certificate to prove it. Which makes sense to me. $200-$300 is not so bad.
If there is documentation of a recent CLA, well, sleep well and try (shoot) a few films. To finally confirm was the right choice.
If the camera doesn't come with a CLA ( at least not recent), I will do it. But if the camera is ok, and no CLA needed, use it first and then decide what to do.
Thank you for the info.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Dennis