Film M cameras w/ single 35mm frame line

[Dennis]

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1 hour ago, pgk said:

My only film Leica is an M4 which is well worth your while looking at. It has a 35mm frame, angled rewind and some like myself, think that it is the epitomy of the M film camera series. Its fully mechanical, has the black tipped flip our film winder, 4 frame lines (any can be masked off by a technician), angled rewind. For less than the price of a current film camera from Leica you should/may be able to find a black paint version which is IMO one of the nicest cameras made by Leica - hence why it remains my (little used) only film M camera. There is also the KE-7A version but its pricey (https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/M4).

Thank you!

M2 having single 35mm frame lines, it will stay in my top choice. Now, let's turn and see the M4. I can feel the love for your camera in your words 🤩 

 

[a.noctilux]

M4 🥰

Funny, I just think of which Leica M I would choose for today.

Unbelievable ...

 

...

M4 !

Since so long ago, my first Leica M was M4 in early 80's.

After using almost all types of Leica M, my first love still remains.

I did have some M4 over years (still have some units now, even one M4 not working anymore), each had to go for repair/CLA once in a while.

Not the "best", but having all that "real" user can desire 😉.

With M4-2/M4-P I was happy to be able to use electric winder.

The winder use was of short time.

The articulated plastic wind-on lever was so comfortable 😊.

With M5/M6 I was happy to have meter, now not really necessary.

M-A/MP have that solid M3 type of winding/rewinding I never been convincing myself to use for longer period than a couple of films.

 

Arnaud (all time lover of M4)

[Dennis]

14 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Arnaud (all time lover of M4)

As Pgk, one more point for the M4 🙂

15 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Not the "best", but having all that "real" user can desire 😉.

What do you like most about it?  Real? Interesting 

[pgk]

Try: https://cameraquest.com/mguide.htm

[a.noctilux]

 

 

double post

Edited March 24, 2021 by a.noctilux

[a.noctilux]

8 minutes ago, Dennis said:

As Pgk, one more point for the M4 🙂

What do you like most about it?  Real? Interesting 

When I pretend to be real user, I add something not palatable "feeling good with the camera/lens".

Like the shutter feeling, not too long or short, just right ...without the meter stage for example.

[Dennis]

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4 minutes ago, pgk said:

Try: https://cameraquest.com/mguide.htm

Thank you. Time to study.

4 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

"feeling good with the camera/lens".

oh yes!

[Dennis]

1 minute ago, a.noctilux said:

without the meter stage for example.

100% agree.

[1joel1]

M4-P was my first Leica and still have one now.

I didn't read the whole thread, but you could get any Leica film body and use an external 35mm finder. 

Joel

[wattsy]

On 3/23/2021 at 5:49 PM, pgk said:

However you may also want to look into the viewfinder magnification as a lower magnification (0.58x) may be preferred to a higher magnification for the 35mm frame and although it was available on some models such as the more recent MP, and I think the M6, I do not know whether it is still an available alteration should it be desired.

It's also worth pointing out that the 0.58x VF didn't have the 135mmm frames so the 35mm framelines exist in splendid isolation. It's a really good option for using a 35mm lens.

[Dennis]

12 minutes ago, wattsy said:

It's also worth pointing out that the 0.58x VF didn't have the 135mmm frames so the 35mm framelines exist in splendid isolation. It's a really good option for using a 35mm lens.

Yes, I tough the the same. It would be for 35mm only. But then I read than the focus patch is smaller, and for some is more difficult to focus.

But yes, I like the splendid isolation 🙂

Would we say that the OVF of the 0.72x is about 24mm view (w/o any frame lines) and the 0.58x is about 21mm?

Because I would love to see a view like a 21mm, but having the frame lines for a 35mm.

.

So, here goes my two extra questions: 

• All the 0.58x VF has single 35mm frame lines?
• Which are the 0.58x cameras fully mechanical? W/ or w/o light meter, as long I can use all SS

1 hour ago, 1joel1 said:

you could get any Leica film body and use an external 35mm finder. 

I like the idea of look and focus in the same place, much faster. I mean for the 35mm

-

The M world is amazing.

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Dennis

[a.noctilux]

So, here goes my two extra questions: 

• All the 0.58x VF has single 35mm frame lines? yes
• Which are the 0.58x cameras fully mechanical? W/ or w/o light meter, as long I can use all SS  x0.58 M6 TTL and MP 

...or Leica M of your choice sent for replacement VF with x0.58 finder

[ktmrider2]

As I said earlier, the M2 and M4 are my favorite film bodies.  I purchased a black chrome 50th anniversary body in mint condition from Classic Connection in November, 2020 for $3000.  A black paint M4 in mint condition would be $5000-6000 if you could find one.  And since the black paint wears off easily finding one would be difficult unless you don't mind the wear which is why people like the black paint.

Get the M2!  If you want it black you can send it off to have it painted. There is a gentleman over on rangefinderforum who lives in either Chile or Peru who will offer black paint bodies from time to time.  If you like, I will send you his link. From what I have seen, he does a great job on repaints.  If you don't like the camera or find one in black at a later date, you can sell the M2 for as much as you paid for it.  Honestly, Leica got something right with the viewfinder on the M2 if you can live with 35/50/90 focal length lenses.  And like I said earlier the whole field of view with the .72 magnification finder does a great job for 28mm.

I don't know why you would spend thousands more to buy another body and replace the viewfinder or have the frame lines masked unless you want a meter which does not seem to be a desire.  You will not be disappointed with the M2 and if you are I will buy it from you.  Or I can sell you my chrome M2 as I have TOO many film cameras.

Edited March 24, 2021 by ktmrider2

[Dennis]

1 hour ago, a.noctilux said:

So, here goes my two extra questions: 

• All the 0.58x VF has single 35mm frame lines? yes
• Which are the 0.58x cameras fully mechanical? W/ or w/o light meter, as long I can use all SS  x0.58 M6 TTL and MP 

...or Leica M of your choice sent for replacement VF with x0.58 finder

Thank you very much. 

1 hour ago, ktmrider2 said:

A black paint M4 in mint condition would be $5000-6000 if you could find one.

😱 .. That case I go for a M-A instead.

1 hour ago, ktmrider2 said:

Get the M2!  

I know. It looks like it's the smartest option. More affordable camera, single 35mm frame lines, and fully mechanical.

1 hour ago, ktmrider2 said:

If you like, I will send you his link.... You will not be disappointed with the M2 and if you are I will buy it from you.  Or I can sell you my chrome M2 as I have TOO many film cameras.

It looks like, in a way or another, you have many options available for me 🙂 Thank you. This thread is about knowing which camera could be an excellent fit for me. I'm still investigating; I won't buy it tomorrow. But at least I know what to look for. I don't want to lose my first film M camera opportunity to get a good fit.
 
It makes sense to me what you said. Find the best option, a mint M2 camera, silver or black. I try it for a while, see what it feels like to shoot with. If you like it, you paint it. If you don't like it, you sell it.
Send me a DM anyway if you want to sell yours.

 

[ktmrider2]

Any black M2 you find will probably be a repaint which is fine.  Original black paint M2's were made in such small numbers that almost all of them are in some Leica collector's exhibit.  Or if you find an original in nice shape, it would cost more than a brand new MA.  There is nothing wrong with a repaint.  If you want the link to the Leica painter from Lima (I think), let me know.  Photographs of his work are beautiful.

My M4 is black chrome and was made in 1975 (50 anniversary edition).  It is mint!  Leica developed the black chrome finish for durability to replace the black enamel paint because the black paint would wear off revealing the brass underneath fairly quickly.  Now these cameras with "patina" are  greatly sought after which is why a chrome M4 goes for about $1700-1900, a black chrome M4 goes for about $3000, while a black paint version goes for $4500-6000.  Of course the workings of the camera are identical for all three models.  I wanted a black paint M4 but did not want to part with $5000 while living with another person's wear causing the patina.  No one using black paint M4's in the late 1960's would ever believe what they fetch these days.  Believe me, I was there (but using Nikon F's professionally).

One thing no one has mentioned is the accessory rewind knob which is available to greatly speed up film rewind.  They are sold by Leica for the MA and MP but several non Leica  knobs are available on eBay for a fraction of the price.  And if you find the standard film loading on an M2 slow, there was a version of the M2 made for the US Army (which cancelled the contract) which had the modern rapid film loading found in M4's and all Leica cameras made after that.  Being relatively rare, they go for $500-1000 more then the standard M2.  Again, Cameraquest has great write up's on all versions of film Leica's as does Tamarkin Camera in Chicago.  And rangefinderforum is another source.  I especially like "Let's See Your Leica M" thread-thousands of photographs of Leica M cameras.

And if you come across a M2 or any film Leica which is cosmetically challenged, leather coverings are available from a couple venders and come in a variety of colors and some exotic leather like ostrich or alligator or snake.  And the coverings are cheap and easy to do.  And give the cameras a new life with a new appearance and feel.

Edited March 25, 2021 by ktmrider2

[pgk]

6 hours ago, ktmrider2 said:

And if you find the standard film loading on an M2 slow, there was a version of the M2 made for the US Army (which cancelled the contract) which had the modern rapid film loading found in M4's and all Leica cameras made after that.  Being relatively rare, they go for $500-1000 more then the standard M2.

Yes, I keep forgetting that the quick load in the M4 wasn't standard on previous models! If you can it is worth having a look at any cameras you can get to see in person (tricky currently I know) if and when at all possible. Decribing the differences is one thing, actually seeing them for yourself is another.

[Dennis]

12 hours ago, ktmrider2 said:

Any black M2 you find will probably be a repaint which is fine.  Original black paint M2's were made in such small numbers that almost all of them are in some Leica collector's exhibit.  Or if you find an original in nice shape, it would cost more than a brand new MA.  There is nothing wrong with a repaint.  If you want the link to the Leica painter from Lima (I think), let me know.  Photographs of his work are beautiful.

My M4 is black chrome and was made in 1975 (50 anniversary edition).  It is mint!  Leica developed the black chrome finish for durability to replace the black enamel paint because the black paint would wear off revealing the brass underneath fairly quickly.  Now these cameras with "patina" are  greatly sought after which is why a chrome M4 goes for about $1700-1900, a black chrome M4 goes for about $3000, while a black paint version goes for $4500-6000.  Of course the workings of the camera are identical for all three models.  I wanted a black paint M4 but did not want to part with $5000 while living with another person's wear causing the patina.  No one using black paint M4's in the late 1960's would ever believe what they fetch these days.  Believe me, I was there (but using Nikon F's professionally).

One thing no one has mentioned is the accessory rewind knob which is available to greatly speed up film rewind.  They are sold by Leica for the MA and MP but several non Leica  knobs are available on eBay for a fraction of the price.  And if you find the standard film loading on an M2 slow, there was a version of the M2 made for the US Army (which cancelled the contract) which had the modern rapid film loading found in M4's and all Leica cameras made after that.  Being relatively rare, they go for $500-1000 more then the standard M2.  Again, Cameraquest has great write up's on all versions of film Leica's as does Tamarkin Camera in Chicago.  And rangefinderforum is another source.  I especially like "Let's See Your Leica M" thread-thousands of photographs of Leica M cameras.

And if you come across a M2 or any film Leica which is cosmetically challenged, leather coverings are available from a couple venders and come in a variety of colors and some exotic leather like ostrich or alligator or snake.  And the coverings are cheap and easy to do.  And give the cameras a new life with a new appearance and feel.

Thank you Sir! Very helpful information, I appreciate it. Between all the info you gave me and the CameraQuest M guide, I know much more than yesterday! I will definitely look for a repaint version, or just silver and then paint it. So expensive as first M film camera. Let's do step by step 🙂

6 hours ago, pgk said:

Yes, I keep forgetting that the quick load in the M4 wasn't standard on previous models! If you can it is worth having a look at any cameras you can get to see in person (tricky currently I know) if and when at all possible. Decribing the differences is one thing, actually seeing them for yourself is another.

I know, it should be easier to try it first, then buy it. It's difficult not to do it in person. And it's easier to get wrong with the perfect fit.

-

For example, the film loading I know is much easier on the M4-M6 cameras than on an M2. I worked with film, I print in color C41 and RA4 lab, I know how to handle a negative. But this was 20 years ago, so I would need a refresh 😆 If It's more difficult on some camera, no problem. I don't need speed for film, just pure pleasure. Loading a film with a slower process, I don't think, can modify my pleasant experience to shoot films. 

[ktmrider2]

Film loading on M2/M3 isn't really more difficult, just different and a bit slower.  Some (myself included) feel that the film loading on the M2 is more secure with less chance of the film not advancing than the "modern" system.  You can speed up the process by buying a couple extra film advance spools on eBay and have them preloaded in your pocket.  In any case, it is always important to check that the rewind lever/knob is rotating as you advance the leader.

Now if you really want to make yourself crazy about film loading, buy a LTM Leica or one of the copies.  Talk about a pain in the ass!

[Dennis]

13 minutes ago, ktmrider2 said:

Film loading on M2/M3 isn't really more difficult, just different and a bit slower.

I used the wrong words, yes slower I mean. More secure, maybe.

In my Nikon FM I can confirm the film is loaded well, because the rewind lever is turning when I load the next frame. How does it work with Leica? Is there a way to confirm the film was loaded correctly?

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22 hours ago, Dennis said:

Would we say that the OVF of the 0.72x is about 24mm view (w/o any frame lines) and the 0.58x is about 21mm?

I believe .72 OVF is roughly equivalent to 28mm and .58 to 24mm.

I'm seeing a guy about an M6 TTL .58 this weekend so I should have a better idea after comparing what I see through the M6 VF versus an external VF I use with my 24mm Elmarit.

I wear glasses so the .58VF is the only practical option for using my 35mm lenses comfortably. My 35mm Summicron will be parked on this semi-permanently, I think.