Film M cameras w/ single 35mm frame line

[Dennis]

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Hello everyone

I would love to get a film M camera in the future, so I would like to start asking your opinion, cause I'm a super newbie about M film cameras. I know there is a la carte option for an M-A, but not sure how it works. The idea is to use it only with a 35mm lens, period. My favorite and most used FL. Starting from the M2 until the current M-A and passing for all M-cameras, which model/versions have single 35mm frame lines and are "optimized" to shoot with a 35?? 

I really like the M-A to be entirely mechanical. I don't need a light meter. But I'm opened to any option, especially if I find a good bargain in the used market.

Ideally, it can be black and w/o light meter. But I'm opened to whatever options I have, as long the 35 frame line is single.

 

Thank you!

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Dennis

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[ktmrider2]

M2 is only model with single 35 frame line.  The M4 and all subsequent models have the 35 paired with the 135.  Many users of the 35 rate the M2 as their favorite Leica for this reason.  I do but also love the original M4 as the 135 frame is almost small enough to be ignored.

A la carte program from Leica is no longer an option.  Many Leica repair technicians like DAG, Sherry or YeYe can mask unwanted frame lines.  For my money, just get a nice M2 and you will have the best camera Leica ever designed and save thousands over the cost of an MA which is essentially an M2 with upgraded film loading (M4 on), paired frame lines (M4-2 on), and nostalgic rewind knob from either M2 or M3 style camera.  

By the way, the M2 had the first .72 magnification viewfinder which became the standard for all subsequent Leica cameras unless rare .85 or .58(?) on a few M6 and following models.  Even though the M2 only has 35/50/90 frame lines (each comes up individually) you can use the whole viewfinder for 28mm and there are a lot of 135 Elmarits which incorporate a magnifier so you can use the 90 if the 135 is mounted.

Classic Connection has a black painted M2 for $1800 (I think) on their website as we speak.

Edited March 23, 2021 by ktmrider2

[a.noctilux]

I see only M2 which at first was designed to use 35mm lens without the goggles of M3 area.

 

As M-A user, the very tiny "frames" four corners of "135" in 35 complete framelines not seen by my mind's eyes.

 

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Edited March 23, 2021 by a.noctilux

[pgk]

Either Leica or an experienced Leica repairer/service technician should be able to modify any of the film Leicas to only utilise the 35mm frame line. However you may also want to look into the viewfinder magnification as a lower magnification (0.58x) may be preferred to a higher magnification for the 35mm frame and although it was available on some models such as the more recent MP, and I think the M6, I do not know whether it is still an available alteration should it be desired.

Edited March 23, 2021 by pgk

[ktmrider2]

I just looked at Classic Connections website and the black paint M2 is listed for $1799 and is rated Ex++.  Give Sam a call.  He is an excellent dealer.  I have purchased a mint M4, a chrome M2, a MP240 and a chrome 3f made in 1952 from him in the last three years.  He is in New Jersey so east coast time.

Tamarkin in Chicago is another outstanding Leica dealer.  Stan's favorite camera is a button rewind M2.  However, they have several videos and great history of Leica film cameras.

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by ktmrider2

[Dennis]

11 minutes ago, ktmrider2 said:

M2 is only model with single 35 frame line.  

I see

11 minutes ago, ktmrider2 said:

Many Leica repair technicians like DAG, Sherry or YeYe can mask unwanted frame lines

This is great. All in US?

9 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

As M-A user, the very tiny "frames" four corners of "135" in 35 complete framelines not seen by my mind's eyes.

Is it less intrusive than the M10, to compare it with something I can see?

8 minutes ago, pgk said:

However you may also want to look into the viewfinder magnification as a lower magnification (0.58x)

I never thought it. I know my M10 has 0.72x which is working fine for me. Maybe the 0.58x is better to frane with the 35mm, but more difficult to focus, cause a smaller patch? 🤷‍♂️

 

[Ko.Fe.]

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It is not just about masking, but cameras with 28mm framelines been more accurate for framing with 35mm framelines by 40mm lens.

Starting from M4-P it is. This is why I stick with M4-2. Some tiny extra lines are totally not big deal for framing, but accurate 35mm framelines is big deal.

M3 (unsurpassed film M for build quality) with goggled 35mm lens is also great, IMO.

Black is less practical for climate with hot sun, btw. I have to use white masking tape on M4-2 top plate, because it gets too hot during crappy summer sun months.  

Edited March 23, 2021 by Ko.Fe.

[Dennis]

1 minute ago, ktmrider2 said:

I just looked at Classic Connections website and the black paint M2 is listed for $1799 and is rated Ex++.

I can't invest right now. But something like this would be amazing. Super good price and with all my specs needed. Thank you. I'm going to check it now anyway 🙂 

[pgk]

Just now, Dennis said:

I never thought it. I know my M10 has 0.72x which is working fine for me. Maybe the 0.58x is better to frane with the 35mm, but more difficult to focus, cause a smaller patch? 

Its a trade off. Better viewfinder coverage versus smaller focus patch. I had a 0.58x M6 which I found to be great with a 35 Summicron. But I suspect that its a personal  thing! Tricky to try though.

[Dennis]

Just now, Ko.Fe. said:

Some tiny extra lines are totally not big deal for framing, but accurate 35mm framelines is big deal.

Do you mean that there are 35mm lines taht are more accurate than others? This changes everything.

[Ko.Fe.]

1 minute ago, Dennis said:

Do you mean that there are 35mm lines taht are more accurate than others? This changes everything.

Yes. If camera has 28mm framelines, it means 35mm framelines where reduced. As result they are grossly inaccurate for framing with 35mm lens, but fine with 40mm lens. 

[ktmrider2]

Putting the double frame lines in the M4P and subsequent models Leica remade the frame lines.  Many feel that the classic models (M3, M2, M4, M5 and M4/2) had the most accurate frame lines.  And Leica modified them again to make room for the LED's in the viewfinder for the M6 and cameras with the built in light meter.  But the frame lines are only accurate at a set distance so depending on the camera model, the frame lines are designed for a specific distance.  Not usually a big deal since the frame lines are an approximation anyway.  

Again, Tamarkin has an illustration showing the .58, .72 and .85 viewfinders on their web site.

And it does not really affect you but the M2 had a depth of field measure in the viewfinder which would allow you to see the depth of field at f5.6 and f11 but only with the 50mm focal length.  

And yes all the Leica repair technicians I listed are in the US,

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by ktmrider2

[Dennis]

1 minute ago, pgk said:

Its a trade off. Better viewfinder coverage versus smaller focus patch. I had a 0.58x M6 which I found to be great with a 35 Summicron. But I suspect that its a personal  thing! Tricky to try though.

It makes sense. I guess the best way is to try it on person and see the difference on framing and focussing with a 35mm on different magnifications. 

.

So, another question. I was seeing the rewind button options on different cameras. There are the ones like the M-A, and the oblique one (like M6). Apart for aesthetics, which is the difference between the rewind? As personal taste, I like better the oblique one, it's beautiful and remind me my Nikon FM.

 

 

[Dennis]

19 minutes ago, ktmrider2 said:

I just looked at Classic Connections website and the black paint M2 is listed for $1799 and is rated Ex++.  Give Sam a call.  He is an excellent dealer.  I have purchased a mint M4, a chrome M2, a MP240 and a chrome 3f made in 1952 from him in the last three years.  He is in New Jersey so east coast time.

 

I saw it: https://www.classicconnection.com/leica-m2-black-re-paint-camera-ex-free-shipping-usa/ It's beautiful 

[ktmrider2]

My understanding is the frame lines on all Leica cameras show the minimum area which will be in the photo so you will not inadvertently crop something out if it is on the border.  Some have said the frame lines were designed for using transparency film (slides) as the slide mount crops a bit of film at the edges.

[Ko.Fe.]

12 minutes ago, Dennis said:

It makes sense. I guess the best way is to try it on person and see the difference on framing and focussing with a 35mm on different magnifications. 

.

So, another question. I was seeing the rewind button options on different cameras. There are the ones like the M-A, and the oblique one (like M6). Apart for aesthetics, which is the difference between the rewind? As personal taste, I like better the oblique one, it's beautiful and remind me my Nikon FM.

 

 

I used both types. One which you referring as M6 is superior to one which you referring as M-A like. If you are regular shooter and especially if bulk loading for 40+ frames.

If camera is for just because and get one 24 frames roll into it few times per year, M-A like is fine.   

[ktmrider2]

I think the M2 is the only film model that may have a button rewind which was only on the early M2's.  Later models had the lever rewind found on almost all other Leica's and the self timer.  From a pure aesthetic point of view, the button rewind is the most pleasing (IMHO).  All you do is push the button in to disengage the film transport.  On the lever, you flip the lever to horizontal to do the same thing.  Not a great deal of difference in one over the other.

There is a massive amount of information over on rangefinderforum.com on M2's, especially if you go to "Tom Abrahansson" forum.  Unfortunately Tom passed away either last year or the year before.  The M2 was his favorite camera (think he owned about 20 bodies) and there is a thread devoted to the M2.  It has lots and lots of posts.  Tom was also a master of TriX.

And on this forum, the is the "I Love the M2" thread which has lots of photos of cameras and knowledge of users.

Edited March 23, 2021 by ktmrider2

[Simone_DF]

You could also consider the Voigtlander Bessa R4M or R4A, it has a 0,58 viewfinder and framelines for 21/25/28/35/50mm

You could probably find one for half or less than half the price of the Leica M2

https://cameraquest.com/voigt4m4aintro.htm

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[Dennis]

1 hour ago, Ko.Fe. said:

If camera is for just because and get one 24 frames roll into it few times per year, M-A like is fine.   

HAHA no please! A camera is for use, and I shoot a lot. The M-A is very expensive. But I always thought that a brand new item you own and use, for many many years, it's better then buy used. I mean, the personal connection with the item 🙂 So the M-A was in my expensive wishlist for two reasons only: it's the only 100% mechanical on sale brand new. That's it.

1 hour ago, ktmrider2 said:

I think the M2 is the only film model that may have a button rewind which was only on the early M2's.  Later models had the lever rewind found on almost all other Leica's and the self timer.

Is there a name or terminology to call the two rewind types?  Button and lever rewind?

1 hour ago, ktmrider2 said:

There is a massive amount of information over on rangefinderforum.com on M2's, especially if you go to "Tom Abrahansson" forum.  . And on this forum, the is the "I Love the M2" thread which has lots of photos of cameras and knowledge of users.

Great, thank you!

56 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

You could also consider the Voigtlander Bessa R4M or R4A, it has a 0,58 viewfinder and framelines for 21/25/28/35/50mm

You could probably find one for half or less than half the price of the Leica M2

https://cameraquest.com/voigt4m4aintro.htm

I want a Leica, because I love its RF system. And to be able to use the same lenses of my M10, and have almost the same exactly modus operandi

 

[Dennis]

Which would be my perfect film M camera?

Scenarios. requirements, musts:

• to use exclusively with 35mm lenses (100% sure)
• Not an M5 or MD versions
• Single stroke
• No battery dependent. 

Wishes, better if:

• black (any kind)
• lever rewind (I like the feeling of it on my slr FM, and prefer the aesthetics.
• no light meter (just because I don't use it)

Your advices are always appreciated. I just want one of the best experience possibly shooting with a 35mm. And fully mechanical it would feel good. 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Dennis