Wedding photographer here, just fully switched from Canon to Leica!

[BernardC]

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14 hours ago, Dennis said:

I think global shutter and zero blackout is the way to go in the future, right? It could make a huge difference. 

The problem with EVF is that it can only show you images after the fact. The analogy that I've used before is that of a batter in baseball or cricket. You need to make a decision about swinging around the same time that the ball leaves the pitcher's hand. In the same way, you can tell that a blink is about to happen a few milliseconds in advance.

You can still see that with an EVF, but the difference is that you only see it once it's too late. The ball has already flown past you, the subject has already blinked.

This will be mitigated over time by faster refresh rates and shorter processing timelines, but it will never go away.

It's only a minor inconvenience. The workaround, for me, is to shoot more frames, and review images before moving to the next shot. The other advantages of the EVF make-up for this at weddings, especially in low light. Some venues insist on ultra-dim lights, which make it very difficult to compose and focus optically.

Mind you, on a bright day I still prefer the S-006 over the SL.

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[Slender]

Interesting.... that is what I used to think. I was all but defending the M viewfinder and I still do: always bright, always immediate, never-tinted by the jpeg engine of the camera, no black out, preview of outside the frame action. it's great for subject that blink or even flash light in real time...etc.

But in practive the 120fps of the SL2 with a 0.005 sec delay and such a fine display really do show up to our human reaction time and sense of perception, in my humble opinion.

It is also telling that when EVF made their way in the cinema world, camera manufacturer started to offer, due to the resistance of famed DOP, their flagship cine-camera with spinning mirrors viewfinders in front of the sensors: Arri Alexa Studio and Sony F65 were the pinnacles. However as EVF became very good those fell out of favour and even the most traditionalist operators eventually accepted an EVF if they were going to use the best digital cameras... and they really have to keep the framing up to the action unfolding for a living and sometimes millions of (currency of your choice) pourred into a scene with stunts, crowds... Can't afford to use "EVF lag" as an excuse for an out of frame or out of focus jump of a Prima Dona like Tom Cruise 🤓

Ok to be fair most of MI films are shot on film, but stunt stuff is also shot on RED.... And films like 1917 the DOP/director/focus-puller... sit even further looking at the image through wireless (even more lag) monitors.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Slender

[BernardC]

The delay is a lot more than 0.005 sec, given that 120fps is more than 0.005 sec. Digital video uses a "store and forward" processing model, so you are usually a few frames behind because each digital step in the imaging pipeline needs complete frames to work on. That means you have a full frame's delay, at least, for each step between the A/D converter and the EVF.

However, that wasn't really my point. It's easy enough to get used to the delay in video, it only shows-up when doing quick pans (something that audiences rarely like), or when shooting subjects that are very sync-sensitive. Drummers and other percussionist come to mind. Even then it's just an inconvenience, like watching a movie out-of-sync.

My point was that I got a lot more blinking shots when I started using mirrorless cameras. As a photographer, you can tell when someone is about to blink, especially if it's a big blink made by someone who's struggling not to blink (because they are being photographed). Years of practice tell you not to shoot when someone is milliseconds away from blinking. Unfortunately, with EVFs, milliseconds are spent in frame buffers and processing pipelines, so that instinct doesn't work.

Anyway, the workaround is to shoot more frames and review often. It's not a showstopper, just a good-to-know.

[Slender]

I generally agree with this. I am a hardcore analogue guy at heart. And my other half blinks a lot so I can relate lol.

The 0.005s number from the Leica SL2 manual, and I am still firmly convinced it is a very good, nearly instant experience I am having behind the camera's viewfinder.

Be it M or SL, it has to be faster than anything with a mirror

The worst is monitoring the SL2 (but other cameras do it too) via an external monitor and sending the sound through the HDMI. You get a full-fat 5 frames delay. Doesnt happen w/o sound
 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Slender

[ravinj]

On 3/16/2021 at 9:27 AM, BernardC said:

Mind you, on a bright day I still prefer the S-006 over the SL.

This ^ . I was looking at files from my S2 and S 120 / S180 last week. Shots taken in 2013. Still jaw dropping and I much prefer that "look" - sharp and smooth at the same time. Should not have sold the S lenses back then - big mistake.

[Photoworks]

On 3/16/2021 at 9:27 AM, BernardC said:

The problem with EVF is that it can only show you images after the fact. The analogy that I've used before is that of a batter in baseball or cricket. You need to make a decision about swinging around the same time that the ball leaves the pitcher's hand. In the same way, you can tell that a blink is about to happen a few milliseconds in advance.

You can still see that with an EVF, but the difference is that you only see it once it's too late. The ball has already flown past you, the subject has already blinked.

This will be mitigated over time by faster refresh rates and shorter processing timelines, but it will never go away.

It's only a minor inconvenience. The workaround, for me, is to shoot more frames, and review images before moving to the next shot. The other advantages of the EVF make-up for this at weddings, especially in low light. Some venues insist on ultra-dim lights, which make it very difficult to compose and focus optically.

Mind you, on a bright day I still prefer the S-006 over the SL.

---------- ========  

did you see the ball? 

I find the EVF fantastic.. considering that in DSLR and years on film the problem was the shutter delay and not seeing the ball coming..

I was shooting ballet on Leica R's and the fist AF 2.8 long zooms from canon on film. It was all about learning to shoot with the delay of the camera from when you bush a Botton .

All the cameras has something different to lens about. took months of use to be one with the camera.

[Darthaddie]

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Congrats. you’re gonna love the Leica system. 

Wedding photographer here. I switched from my Canons and Fuji GFX system to Leica last year. I got a Sl 35 yesterday in addition to my Sigma 84 1.4 and Voigtlander 40 1.2. So far shot 40 weddings with the Leica and couldn’t be happier.

After using the Summicron 35 at a wedding today, I felt the true sense of owning the Leica system. It’s epicness cannot be described in words and numbers 😁

Something that I did observe on switching is my edits were a lot quicker. No more spending hours on skin tone correction and getting rid of overtly orange and yellow tones from images. 

I never use TTL so all my previous flashes just work. I do miss the DOF field preview on my SL2 but that’s something I no longer care for much. 

I do find the Sigma 85 troublesome in some situations but until I get my hands on the Summi 90, it does the job pretty well. 

Something I adore on the Leica is being able to switch between photo and video modes without affecting the unique settings for both. I shoot fully manual (always have) and the Leica system works perfectly for that. Also have a S1R and S5 but use them for videos mainly. 

Never had issues with low light performance on the SL2. I add lights anyways and shoot max iso 3200. 

I recently booked 2 large weddings just cause I shoot on the Leica. And most often I get complimented for owning a Leica. Added bonus 😄

[Simone_DF]

4 hours ago, Darthaddie said:

I do find the Sigma 85 troublesome in some situations

Can you elaborate on this one?

[Darthaddie]

5 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Can you elaborate on this one?

Sure. Here are my issues described per my previous post  

Still holds true. I compared it to all other lenses I owned and also got my sigma copy replaced.

[oka]

I do mainly weddings and I switched from Canon few years ago. I shoot primarily nowadays with 2xSL2S with M10R as backup, while I own most of the SL primes I shoot weddings with M primes due to bokeh, rendering and size/weight.

Things has progressed a lot to positive way during the years, but where Leica lags well behind is the support / service for professionals. It's nowhere near the level of CPS/NPS where you can get loaners even on same day and service turnarounds in few days. Due to the market place where Leica is, this is something which probably never will get to the level of CPS/NPS which means that you either have good relationship with the retailer which is able to provide loaners or have some extra spares your self which in Leica terms is quite a financial burden.

Leica seems to have stepped up on support recently and they are able to ship loaners but still, it takes some time to arrive and the selection is bit limited.

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by oka

[Dennis]

2 hours ago, oka said:

I do mainly weddings and I switched from Canon few years ago. I shoot primarily nowadays with 2xSL2S with M10R as backup, while I own most of the SL primes I shoot weddings with M primes due to bokeh, rendering and size/weight.

That's a killer combination, congrats! How do you feel shooting EVF?

2 hours ago, oka said:

It's nowhere near the level of CPS/NPS where you can get loaners even on same day and service turnarounds in few days.

I can imagine. I heard awful things ... Just a very few are amazing.

NikonMexico, for example, is much behind the NikonUsa steps; I mean customer support, times, and availability. I was lucky enough to be one of the Nikon ambassadors for a few years, I saw how it worked, and honestly, issues are everywhere. I've been invited to NY for the Z mount launch event, but they never sent me a D850 for me to try. For logistics problems. Can you believe that? People asking me about the camera, and my answer was the same: I can't tell you, no idea. 🤦‍♂️

Unfortunately, there is not a strong presence of photo-related brands in Mexico. We are always behind. Things don't arrive here, no customer services or minimal support. And the worst: prices. But I'm still happily use Nikon, for the moment.

No Leica presence here in Mexico. My best option is in the USA: San Francisco or the guys in Miami. But if I buy there, if I want the support there, I still have to pass to Mexico customs. Importing stuff, there is about 22% taxes fee. 

There is a part of me who is thinking that it is not reliable for me the switch. But I also know that I never sent a camera or lens of mine to service in 20 years. I always cleaned my lenses ( on purpose, not a lot) and the sensor by myself. I never had a problem. Besides the last year's privilege of a free service, I never did; There was no need. I just sent a D810 for a CLA before selling it. 
So why not switch? Nothing will happen, right? Embrace it haha

[hellobrandonscott]

9 hours ago, oka said:

I do mainly weddings and I switched from Canon few years ago. I shoot primarily nowadays with 2xSL2S with M10R as backup, while I own most of the SL primes I shoot weddings with M primes due to bokeh, rendering and size/weight.

Things has progressed a lot to positive way during the years, but where Leica lags well behind is the support / service for professionals. It's nowhere near the level of CPS/NPS where you can get loaners even on same day and service turnarounds in few days. Due to the market place where Leica is, this is something which probably never will get to the level of CPS/NPS which means that you either have good relationship with the retailer which is able to provide loaners or have some extra spares your self which in Leica terms is quite a financial burden.

Leica seems to have stepped up on support recently and they are able to ship loaners but still, it takes some time to arrive and the selection is bit limited.

 

CPS isn't cheap though either. Just something to keep in mind when comparing. 

[BernardC]

20 hours ago, Dennis said:

There is a part of me who is thinking that it is not reliable for me the switch. But I also know that I never sent a camera or lens of mine to service in 20 years. I always cleaned my lenses ( on purpose, not a lot) and the sensor by myself. I never had a problem.

My SL has been completely reliable through 4 wedding seasons (plus 2020 which doesn't count). I work as a second shooter, but that's still hundreds of thousands of shots. If anything, it's been more reliable than the Canon kit it replaced, but only because the 5D's use CF cards that could bend pins. You still need a backup, of course. A Panasonic S5, or a used S1, should be fine.

[oka]

5 hours ago, Dennis said:

That's a killer combination, congrats! How do you feel shooting EVF?

My first intention was to shoot only with M but slowly the reality hit hard. With RF, it's practically impossible to shoot accurately enough (for the weddings) on dim light. With EVF I can shoot almost in complete darkness with Noctilux with great hit rate. I initially shot weddings mainly with SL coupled with Noct50 0.95 and M10/P/R with Summilux 21 & 28.

...BUT even with improved EVF resolution on SL2/S, small aperture / wide lenses are much faster to focus with RF when there is enough light.

5 hours ago, Dennis said:

So why not switch? Nothing will happen, right? Embrace it haha

Maybe I'm one of the unluckiest Leica owner, but to be hones I was very close to ditch the Leica before I even received my order in fully. Two of my first M10's had RF out of calibration and one had sensor problem, which was then replaced. My first lenses, APO50 had to be calibrated and on Summilux 28 optical assembly needed to redone completely.

Basically it took almost 6 months to even get my initial order and repair them to the state which should be in when I received them in the first place. Then this hassle continued on almost on all purchases on M system (more caibration issues, shutter replacement, logic board replacement, RF replacement...). My latest M, the M10R came again RF out of calibration out of the box but due to Covid, I haven't send it yet to the service.

...BUT the SL system has been very reliable. I've had only one issue, 24-90 zooming got bit loose but it was fixed promptly.

On Canon with 10+ bodies, once shutter failed and one lens from 20+ which I used in 10 years failed. Few times I broke things due to accidents but with CPS Platinum turnover was 3 days, with immediate access to loaners (I even lived 200m from the Canon main service point). Thought my Canon kit was also annually calibrated.

For weddings having reliable equipment and fast availability of replacements is paramount... btw. your site is awesome.

[oka]

On 3/19/2021 at 5:10 AM, hellobrandonscott said:

CPS isn't cheap though either. Just something to keep in mind when comparing. 

...CPS in Europe in my knowledge is still free and even with cost of couple hundreds is like buying lens cap to the Leica lens 😆 

[Dennis]

Thank you for your kind words.

8 minutes ago, oka said:

Maybe I'm one of the unluckiest Leica owner, but to be hones I was very close to ditch the Leica before I even received my order in fully. Two of my first M10's had RF out of calibration and one had sensor problem, which was then replaced. My first lenses, APO50 had to be calibrated and on Summilux 28 optical assembly needed to redone completely.

Basically it took almost 6 months to even get my initial order and repair them to the state which should be in when I received them in the first place.

Wow, it's truly bad luck. And between all things can happen, a RF not calibrated I guess is the worst. I can feel you "former" pain 🙂

10 minutes ago, oka said:

With RF, it's practically impossible to shoot accurately enough (for the weddings) on dim light.

It's not impossible, as you say, IMHO. But yes, very challenging depending on the situation. With practice, practice and practice, through the years, one can mastering manual focus in all conditions. After three years and shooting almost daily with my M, I'm still learning new stuff and tricks every day. I hope to shoot another wedding with M soon.
Feel free to share with us some galleries/links for your wedding work 🙂 That would be great.

17 minutes ago, oka said:

For weddings having reliable equipment and fast availability of replacements is paramount..

Agree. For any storytelling stuff, I shoot w/ one camera only. Bringing another body as a backup, and because nothing ever happened, I feel safe, also without customer service support.  
Reliable is a must, no doubt. Now I feel super safe with my Nikon D5 tank.

[oka]

14 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Feel free to share with us some galleries/links for your wedding work 🙂 That would be great.

This is only Leica shot gallery on my site currently, hope to expand it soon after this COVID disaster is “gone”.

Regarding the M, I can focus up to ISO3200, but then it’s just too dark to focus with Noctilux. With lux or cron I can focus pretty much on any condition what camera can handle (well except the Monochrome which can see basically the darkness 😄).

But even with the limitations, the M system is just pure joy to use. How you feel when taking photos is something I haven’t experienced on any system, even on SL with M glass.

[Dennis]

4 hours ago, oka said:

This is only Leica shot gallery on my site currently, hope to expand it soon after this COVID disaster is “gone”.

Thanks for sharing. I really enjoyed your BW's ... Very natural look, great blacks, like it. Have you ever considering showing BW only?

4 hours ago, oka said:

(well except the Monochrome which can see basically the darkness 😄).

I didn't know. Why so? Brighter?

4 hours ago, oka said:

But even with the limitations, the M system is just pure joy to use.

+1

 

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[david strachan]

5 hours ago, oka said:

This is only Leica shot gallery on my site currently, hope to expand it soon after this COVID disaster is “gone”.

Regarding the M, I can focus up to ISO3200, but then it’s just too dark to focus with Noctilux. With lux or cron I can focus pretty much on any condition what camera can handle (well except the Monochrome which can see basically the darkness 😄).

But even with the limitations, the M system is just pure joy to use. How you feel when taking photos is something I haven’t experienced on any system, even on SL with M glass.

Fabulous story oka of a wedding and such excellent b&w processing, without blocked up shadow areas.

Delightful.

[oka]

4 hours ago, Dennis said:

Have you ever considering showing BW only?

 

Yes, my site is currently under redesign and idea is to group bw and color photos separately.