Sl2 or Sl2-S - Advice Appreciated

[hansvons]

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54 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I don't think there really are "true camera colors". All sensors are B&W and it is the bayer demosaic algorithm that determines the colors. C1 and Lightroom use different techniques, and the profiles are also critical for determining the "look" of the colors.

Without evidence and deeper insight into the design of camera raw files and raw importers such as C1 or Lightroom, I think the following is the case:

Despite the fact that demosaicing/de-bayering is an algorithm that transfers via a Bayer pattern B&W data to colour, I have the impression that the camera manufacturers have a decisive say in how that has to be done. Otherwise, there wouldn't be on the colour side such visible differences between a Nikon Z6 and a Leica Sl2-S or an Arri Alexa and a Red Monstro. Somewhere in the pipeline, the camera manufacturers have their secret source, aka colour science, do the magic that differentiates one camera from the other camera on the colour side. Colour is a vital asset for camera brands.

In 2008, it was possible to de-bayer Red's R3Ds with Iridas Speedgrade (now part of Adobe's colour science) directly from the R3D raw files through reverse engineering. Red closed that door a few months later on their software side. I found the Speegrade interpretation better and closer to real-time.

I think that in C1's case, their Leica SL2-S ProStandard ICC profile does not feed from the raw raw but from a de-bayered RGB interpretation that resembles the manufacturer's colour science. Actually, anyone can create their own ICC profile. I've done that quite successfully for the Nikon Z6, trying to come closer to Leicas idea of what colour should look like.

[BernardC]

18 minutes ago, hansvons said:

Somewhere in the pipeline, the camera manufacturers have their secret source, aka colour science, do the magic that differentiates one camera from the other camera on the colour side. Colour is a vital asset for camera brands

I suspect it's a combination of colour filter arrays and A/D converters. It's extremely difficult to match two different cameras precisely, even in a calibrated grading suite (or perhaps especially in a grading suite).

[LBJ2]

3 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Jpegs would be one way. But camera companies usually work with Adobe and Capture One to tell them what they want. Abobe's "Camera Standard" etc are interpretations of manufacturer's profiles that they provide for jpegs. In Leica's case, they have input on how the Adobe profile works, but I think how much that is, is unanswerable by anyone outside of Leica and Adobe...I am sure that it is a compromise on both ends. Some companies have their own raw software, which would allow you to see what they think. At the end of the day, I think it is not super important who does it and what the companies intend, more important is which ones work best for you.

Thank you. Agreed. Too many variables. Would love for Leica to do one of their Peter Karbe type Youtube interviews discussing the Leica colour production and management process to include partners like C1 and Adobe. Would be very interesting. Like you, I work with several techniques/apps to arrive at my colour goals which sometimes is about matching files other times more about projecting a mood/intention or simply just trying to recreate what I saw. Overall definitely a many-to-many paradigm. 

Thanks again for your insightful comments. 

[Stuart Richardson]

Not at all...I basically gave up on trying to match straight out of camera colors from one camera to the next. I think you can get close in processing, of course, but as Bernard said, it can be very difficult to exactly match cameras, even if you put both in front of the same color chart and lighting and make a custom profile...they are still a bit different. I now focus more on finding a camera with colors I like out of camera, or finding a profile that works. From there things need adjustment anyway, so it is not such a burden in most cases. The cameras with the colors that I liked the most were the S006 and M9, but I also think the SL2 and Panasonic S1 have really great color. I was never quite as big a fan of Fuji, Sony, or Nikon. I have liked Canon color at times, but I really don't like the way their detail is rendered for some reason...the files always look soft to me. The main exception would be the 1D series. I work as a printer for a nature photographer who uses the 1D series and the long telephotos and her files usually look great. Never liked the stuff coming out of the 5D series...nobody brings me anything from the new mirrorless ones, so I cannot comment on them. Seems like everyone here uses Fuji, Sony and Nikon these days.

[beewee]

I would imagine, if you truly want to achieve accurate color matching for such things as product shots where you have controlled lighting and an end-to-end color management system, then you could shoot a color checker and then generate a custom camera profile for your specific setup (fixed white balance setting, lighting temperature, etc…) and then use that to color correct your camera images on import. 

You can check this out: https://xritephoto.com/CameraCalibration

Edited September 7, 2021 by beewee

[Reggie]

If you're after standardised colour profiling for different cameras so that the output of a Canon file is indistinguishable from, say, a Fuji file then cobalt might have the answer for you.

They claim to be more accurate than lightroom and C1's RAW processing engines. 

Edited September 11, 2021 by Reggie

[LBJ2]

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"Leica SL2-S review. Should you buy LEICA SL2-S? First impressions of Leica's sleeper camera"

 

[hansvons]

@LBJ2 Well though-out video. Thanks for sharing!

[RBB]

Took the pain in my wallet today and traded my Panasonic S5 for an SL2-S. I used the S5 next to my SL2 and no complaints about the output of the S5 but the controls and the menu sometimes drove me crazy. It also made a lesser experience when taking pictures, for me just as important as the final result.

I was also able to take advantage of the Leica promotion and took a free M to L adapter.

I will use the SL2 and SL2-s side by side.

SL2-s, Leica 24-70, 70mm, iso 800, 1/30.

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SL2-s, Leica 24-70, 60mm, 1600 iso, 1/80

[hansvons]

@RBB Nice portrait! Your images are pretty desaturated (not that I dislike that), but I'm wondering how you find the Leica SL2-S' colours compared to the S5's colour rendition?

[RBB]

Thank you, yes do like to desaturate, i will update you as soon can make a good comparison, I usually need some time and a thousand shots to review a camera or lens and got a feel for it. About the colors, thats goes a lot quicker and let you know.

Rob

[LBJ2]

19 hours ago, RBB said:

Took the pain in my wallet today and traded my Panasonic S5 for an SL2-S. I used the S5 next to my SL2 and no complaints about the output of the S5 but the controls and the menu sometimes drove me crazy. It also made a lesser experience when taking pictures, for me just as important as the final result.

I was also able to take advantage of the Leica promotion and took a free M to L adapter.

I will use the SL2 and SL2-s side by side.

SL2-s, Leica 24-70, 70mm, iso 800, 1/30.

 

SL2-s, Leica 24-70, 60mm, 1600 iso, 1/80

 

I can't imagine there are many walking around with both these cameras. I look forward to your comparison notes. Just curious, what in your workflow requires using both of these particular two cameras side by side? Not that there is anything wrong with this approach. Just curious.

Edited September 15, 2021 by LBJ2

[RBB]

21 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

Just curious, what in your workflow requires using both of these particular two cameras side by side?

Haha, maybe I expressed myself niet correctly, what I meant is that I will use the cameras side bij side not at the same time with a strap around my neck. Sometimes, rarely I do if the situation calls for it, being able tot quickly switch between two bodies with different lenses. I've always had two bodies, call it a deviation. On longer journeys, a month in Africa or a winter in Iceland it also gives more certainty not to come without equipment. In the past it was the newer camera and the older one it replaced, now I wanted more or less similar camera's.

Because I no longer work professionally I choose other equipment. The experience of shooting is nowadays more important for me than the best equipment or the best price / quality ratio. Of course has everyone a different opinion about what is the best. Luckily, imagine if we all had the same camera, all drove the same car and we're all looking for the same partner, very boring world.

I have ben shooting Nikon for over 30 years. Every now and then I grabbed my old F3 to relax and consciously enjoy shooting. That's exactly what Leica does to me, the F3 now stays in the closet.

Then why the SL2-s instead of a second SL2, Firstly the price, unfortunately I don't have a unlimited budget, secondly the resolution, if I do landschap I go for the 47mp SL2 but I rarely need the resolution, so less large files, faster processing etc etc.

ps one thing I already noticed in with the SL2 and SL2-s are exactly the same, when briefly testing with the Panasonic 70-200 f/2.8 on medium speed (AF-C). With the battery at 80 percent of it's capacity i got the famous message "BATTERY POWER NOT SUFFICIENT FOR 4K RECORDING AND BURST SHOOTING" 😪

Rob

SL2-S - Pana 70-200 f/2.8

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[LBJ2]

1 hour ago, RBB said:

Haha, maybe I expressed myself niet correctly, what I meant is that I will use the cameras side bij side not at the same time with a strap around my neck. Sometimes, rarely I do if the situation calls for it, being able tot quickly switch between two bodies with different lenses. I've always had two bodies, call it a deviation. On longer journeys, a month in Africa or a winter in Iceland it also gives more certainty not to come without equipment. In the past it was the newer camera and the older one it replaced, now I wanted more or less similar camera's.

Because I no longer work professionally I choose other equipment. The experience of shooting is nowadays more important for me than the best equipment or the best price / quality ratio. Of course has everyone a different opinion about what is the best. Luckily, imagine if we all had the same camera, all drove the same car and we're all looking for the same partner, very boring world.

I have ben shooting Nikon for over 30 years. Every now and then I grabbed my old F3 to relax and consciously enjoy shooting. That's exactly what Leica does to me, the F3 now stays in the closet.

Then why the SL2-s instead of a second SL2, Firstly the price, unfortunately I don't have a unlimited budget, secondly the resolution, if I do landschap I go for the 47mp SL2 but I rarely need the resolution, so less large files, faster processing etc etc.

ps one thing I already noticed in with the SL2 and SL2-s are exactly the same, when briefly testing with the Panasonic 70-200 f/2.8 on medium speed (AF-C). With the battery at 80 percent of it's capacity i got the famous message "BATTERY POWER NOT SUFFICIENT FOR 4K RECORDING AND BURST SHOOTING" 😪

Rob

SL2-S - Pana 70-200 f/2.8

 

Thank you. As suspected. I think one of the reasons selecting between the SL2 and SL2-S in 2021 can be difficult is because while there are some distinctive differences, both cameras also have a lot of overlap IMO. But certainly one is a good backup camera to the other. For me, I'm hoping SL2 firmware ver 3.0 closes the small gap a tiny bit further. But now that the SL2 is almost two years old...I'm not expecting major enhancements, but we shall see.

You wrote: "ps one thing I already noticed in with the SL2 and SL2-s are exactly the same, when briefly testing with the Panasonic 70-200 f/2.8 on medium speed (AF-C). With the battery at 80 percent of it's capacity i got the famous message "BATTERY POWER NOT SUFFICIENT FOR 4K RECORDING AND BURST SHOOTING" 😪

I thought there was a Panasonic firmware update that corrected or improved this situation? Is your Panasonic 70-200 f2.8 firmware updated?

[RBB]

4 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Is your Panasonic 70-200 f2.8 firmware updated?

yes it is

[hoolyproductions]

Yes, it seems whichever of these two cameras you get, you easily wonder about the other one. Particularly if you hang around here reading posts

I got the SL2-S a couple of months ago and am delighted with it. I've been a long time rangefinder shooter (M6 and M240/M10), with a prior background in Nikon D700 and then Sony A7. I learned so much from several years with a rangefinder (in particular from an 18 month period shooting only with film), but I slowly but surely wanted to return to auto focus and 'what you see is what you get' EVF.

I'm absolutely delighted with the SL2-S, even if the weight/size was initially quite a shock. The ergonomics/haptics are fantastic, not to mention the image quality and the fabulous lenses. And the Summicron-SL 50mm does indeed feel 'petite' once you get used to the 24-90mm zoom.

I have a CL, which is superb, but I fell so much in love with the ergonomics, larger EVF and features like back button focus I wonder about trading it for an SL2 (extra cropping, landscapes, and to be able to use my TL lenses with more resolution). Having said that, winter is coming in Finland so I will be mainly shooting music in sparsely lit bars and dark city streets, with few opportunities for outdoor/daylight cityscapes and landscapes, so I'll keep my  'cool' for the winter and see how I feel when the honeymoon period wears off. Plus I quite often travel by bicycle or on business trips where I doubt I would lug the SL2-S unless I would be going to a really special location and be guaranteed quality free time with the camera, so I'll hold onto the CL for now.

 

[RBB]

SL2 vs SL2-s (Sigma 135mm f/1.8)

First straight out the camera

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Second one imported in Capture One en the usual editing.

 

[sblitz]

I like the colors in the SL2-S better, but that difference could be from a lot of things not including the camera. Your thought is?

[RBB]

 I also like the colours of the SL2-s better, looks richer. Took the same settings en did the same editing on the second image but it is very easy so adjust the SL2 image to get the same look. I prefer the colours of the SL2-s but also love the amount of detail that the SL2 gives.

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Hallo,

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[LeicaR10]

RBB,  The color is better from the SL2-S.  You will see this time and again too.  I switched from the SL2 to the SL2-S for the color, low light capabiltiy and far less moire.  I make 4 ft x 6 ft prints quite readily from the SL2-S as well.  If you shoot in low light or night photography, the SL2-S delivers stunning results when printed.  Thanks for your comparisions.  r/ Mark