Keeping it Simple

[lct]

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...I wrote in an article some months ago that I hope to see a renaissance of interest in rangefinder photography. I'm encouraged by the number of college-aged photographers who have been fascinated by my R-D1...

Great of you Sean but Leica is too expensive for young users i'm afraid.

Was the same in my youth but most cameras were rangefinders then.

Today there is no choice for youngsters but to use film or to buy a DSLR.

Would be great if Cosina could sell a $1,000 digital Bessa, i could give one as a gift to my daughter with a couple of my dear old Leica lenses.

[rvaubel]

Would be great if Cosina could sell a $1,000 digital Bessa, i could give one as a gift to my daughter with a couple of my dear old Leica lenses.

 

I'd say it would be great! And I'd be the first one to buy one! And Sean would be one step behind me or one step in front of me because he knocked me over getting thru the door!

 

Rex

[erl]

Well, my take on the style(already decided anyway!) issue is that I use rangefinders specifically because I can shoot rapidly on demand, critically all the time and be very mobile and intuitive without warning. Anything below that is a breeze. I am currently 5/6 of the way through a six day theatrical shoot. I am using 1 RD-1 (I only have one) with Leica lenses. I have no fore knowledge of what will be performed on stage so I am shooting intuitively. Apart from lenses, the only thing I have time to change is the ISO setting, and only because the RD1 allows me to quickly change with basically one rotary movement of a dial (albeit not really well designed). If I had to wade through menus to do this, it would be hopeless. So it basically works like a very high quality P&S. I am confident the M8 will be along these lines, but much better.

 

Manipulations, especially highly varied stage lighting, as in my situation, are much better dealt with on the PC rather than impossible fiddling in camera.

 

Yep, my vote for absolute simplicity and easy functinality. The rest is the photographers responsibilty.

 

sadly, I probably won't see the M8 available in Oz for at least 12 months.

 

Cheers,

Erl

[IcemanYQQ]

The simpler, the better.

 

Once you have taken away the AF, metering options, and countless custom functions, there are only a few "must have" options required for a camera like the M8. Here is a list of what I would call basic, and required. They do not require a myriad of buttons, dials, wheels, or menu functions.

 

1) ISO selection, even it uses a dial like on the film "M". A range of 100-1600 would be acceptable.

2) WB selection; Auto, Presets, and Kelvin.

3) RAW image mode and JPEG mode

4) A buffer, I don't need 3 fps, but it would be nice to be able to take a RAW image one after the other, without having to wait for it to write like the Digilux 2

 

We need a frame counter, I wonder if they could incorporate a digital version where the existing counter already resides.

[sean_reid]

Great of you Sean but Leica is too expensive for young users i'm afraid.

Was the same in my youth but most cameras were rangefinders then.

Today there is no choice for youngsters but to use film or to buy a DSLR.

Would be great if Cosina could sell a $1,000 digital Bessa, i could give one as a gift to my daughter with a couple of my dear old Leica lenses.

 

Hi LCT,

 

Too expensive for many college students perhaps but not necessarily too expensive for people in their twenties with jobs that pay well. Also not necessarily too expensive for younger professional photographers (in fact, I know a couple who are planning to buy the digital M). As for the less expensive digital rangefinder option, you know I'm all for it. I'd like to see that option become accessible to a wider range of people.

 

Best,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

I'd say it would be great! And I'd be the first one to buy one! And Sean would be one step behind me or one step in front of me because he knocked me over getting thru the door!

 

Rex

 

Now Rex, I wouldn't knock you over. I'd just buy the review camera. <G> Actually one can't usually do that.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[TimF]

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The simpler, the better.

 

Once you have taken away the AF, metering options, and countless custom functions, there are only a few "must have" options required for a camera like the M8. Here is a list of what I would call basic, and required. They do not require a myriad of buttons, dials, wheels, or menu functions.

 

1) ISO selection, even it uses a dial like on the film "M". A range of 100-1600 would be acceptable.

2) WB selection; Auto, Presets, and Kelvin.

3) RAW image mode and JPEG mode

4) A buffer, I don't need 3 fps, but it would be nice to be able to take a RAW image one after the other, without having to wait for it to write like the Digilux 2

 

We need a frame counter, I wonder if they could incorporate a digital version where the existing counter already resides.

 

Given that the M8 will have a self-cocking shutter (at least I presume it will be so), an option for single shot or continuous shooting is also required.

[rvaubel]

Now Rex, I wouldn't knock you over. I'd just buy the review camera. <G> Actually one can't usually do that.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Sean

Your right, you wouldn't buy the review camera. You'd just keep it.

 

Rex

[rvaubel]

The simpler, the better.

Here is a list of what I would call basic

 

1) ISO selection, even it uses a dial like on the film "M". A range of 100-1600 would be acceptable.

2) WB selection; Auto, Presets, and Kelvin.

3) RAW image mode and JPEG mode

4) A buffer, I don't need 3 fps, but it would be nice to be able to take a RAW image one after the other, without having to wait for it to write like the Digilux 2

 

We need a frame counter, I wonder if they could incorporate a digital version where the existing counter already resides.

 

Those basic settings should be controlled by analog knobs, which you confirm your setting by looking at where they are set. Not push buttons scrolling thru menus. A well designed knob can be set in the dark by feel (counting positions works fine).

 

One auto function I would like to see is apeture priority. I was a diehard opponent of such a wussy affectation, but I have gradually seen the convienance of such a feature. In conjunction with some form of exposure compensation, you have almost as much control of the camera while having the advantage of being able to work a lot faster. As long as I am admitting to a certain less than manly streak, I may as well ask for (shreeech!) auto ISO. I've never used it, but I can see it might be useful as an option.

 

The RD1 has all these features executed really well. I hope Leica will not backslide into a menu driven system. My fondest hope would be Epsons stepper motor dial. But that was a product of Epson/Seiko's watch background. Too expensive to manufacture but easily the coolest thing I have ever seen on a camera.

 

Rex

[marknorton]

Here's just one example of how I think Epson could have improved the ergonomics of their camera.

 

If you are reviewing an image, you need to be able to do three things - zoom in and out, shift vertically and horizontally. The Epson requires you to lift the shuttle knob to go from zoom to shift and then press a button to toggle between up/down and left/right.

 

If would have been so much better to use the nifty 3 way lever normally used to select WB and Quality to switch between the three modes - up, centre, down activated with your right thumb and the shuttle dial moved with your left forefinger.

 

The key is to give the camera the control elements which are easy and unambiguous to use - a dial, a lever, a knob - and then use software with a consistent approach to knit them together into sensible combinations. Peppering the back panel with buttons and endless menus is definitely not the answer.

 

Rex, we're certain to get aperture priority auto-exposure just as the M7 has and I agree auto-ISO is a useful feature, especially when you know the focal length of the lens and want to trade camera shake for image noise but even introducing a feature like this potentially adds a number of parameters for the user to think about and agonise over. Should the Auto ISO stretching kick in at 1/30 or a 1/15? What if I'm using a 21mm lens? Or a 90mm? And so it goes on.

[rvaubel]

Mark

I have to agree the RD1's zoom review function is clumsy at best. I figure the wanted to use up that rewind knobs functionality and practicality be damned. However, it was their only real misstep.

Your probably right about auto-ISO also. As I said, I've never used it. Might be fun to play with as long as I can turn it off.

Rex

[george +]

Yes. Please. Let's keep it simple! Though I prefer knobs/buttons to menus.

 

But we all must realize that these decisions have been made by Leica eons ago. Let us hope they made them right.

 

And let us hope that by now production is in full swing with many M8-s ready and boxed for end-of-september buyers.

[lct]

...we all must realize that these decisions have been made by Leica eons ago...

Of course we do George but those discussions may prevent us to make some mistakes like put a pre-order for the M8 AFAIC as i'm now convinced that i won't have the 1:1 viewfinder i was dreaming about and that i'd have to use an accessory finder to get a 28mm field of view on the M8...

[IcemanYQQ]

Those basic settings should be controlled by analog knobs, which you confirm your setting by looking at where they are set. Not push buttons scrolling thru menus. A well designed knob can be set in the dark by feel (counting positions works fine).

 

One auto function I would like to see is apeture priority.

Rex

 

Absolutely, if this was possible, dials would be preferred. I second the Aperture priority, it really just takes on more position on the shutter speed dial "A", except with Aperture Priority, I think exposure comensation (can also be done with a wheel) then needs to be added as well. (With a film camera, exposure compensation has always been part of the ISO dial, but I don't think that will work on a digital camera)

[rvaubel]

....... I think exposure comensation (can also be done with a wheel) then needs to be added as well. (With a film camera, exposure compensation has always been part of the ISO dial, but I don't think that will work on a digital camera)

 

The RD1 has exposure compensation built into the shutter speed dial. It works as it should. I keep my camera in the "A" mode and tweak the exposure with the compensation dial. Since digital sensors have a rather narrow tolerance with regards to correct exposure, I find myself making 1/3 stop corrections routinely. The only quibble I have with Epsons compensation dial is it has a lock at "0".

 

Rex

[marknorton]

We're expecting the M8 shutter to go up to 1/8000 and down to, maybe, 4 seconds with more in AE mode, so that puts a real strain on space to have the EV+/- on there as well. What we definitely don't need is that locking button!