Worth getting a Leica S2 or a S006 in 2021?

[Stuart Richardson]

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One thing I have noticed is that Adobe seems to apply a number of extra corrections to their profiles, beyond simply color. In the S3 in particular, I found that custom profiles I made had much higher shadow noise than Adobe's profiles, which in turn had less shadow noise, but also desaturated shadow detail. Their profile was not neutral and I did not like the colors, but the camera felt handicapped in difficult lighting when using the Color Checker Passport profiles (yes, I know about dual illuminant profiles etc). I would say that if you can find a stock profile that suits your taste, that is generally the best option. If you want a more neutral profile, it seems to me that Capture One's base profile is a good option. Looking at the color chart I had, their base profile was more neutral. Adobe tweaks the greens, blues and reds etc. It is decidedly not neutral...at least in the S3. I also preferred a custom profile with the S006, but the difference was not as dramatic and Adobe did not seem to be doing anything too drastic to the S006 files, like they do with the S3. The SL2 is somewhere in between. I notice it most in the skies, where the Adobe profiles tend to be more yellow/cyan than blue/magenta. In general, like Jeff, I prefer custom profiles, but I think Adobe is changing how they handling processing in their software, and custom profiles are starting to be handicapped. I guess that part of this is that Adobe is pressured to have camera-tailored results for each new camera, and most cameras from major manufacturers have a number of different preset profiles (landscape, portrait, neutral etc), and Adobe does their work on those profiles. They probably figure that most users use that, and it is ok for them to hinder custom profiles a bit since not as many users use them.

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

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[aksclix]

Pre-owned S006 in 9+ condition with box, with old sensor and no signs of corrosion sold for $995!! Whoever got this must be super happy!! Why would they mark it down So low?? 
https://www.camerawest.com/used/leica-s-006-boxed-4687210

 

[Sarnian]

16 minutes ago, aksclix said:

Pre-owned S006 in 9+ condition with box, with old sensor and no signs of corrosion sold for $995!! Whoever got this must be super happy!! Why would they mark it down So low?? 
https://www.camerawest.com/used/leica-s-006-boxed-4687210

 

I had it in my cart but was having issues checking out so I missed it. Gutted!!

[Jeff S]

26 minutes ago, aksclix said:

Pre-owned S006 in 9+ condition with box, with old sensor and no signs of corrosion sold for $995!! Whoever got this must be super happy!! Why would they mark it down So low?? 
https://www.camerawest.com/used/leica-s-006-boxed-4687210

 

Because they apparently priced in the potential for sensor corrosion, as warned in the item description.  Used prices for S gear at Camera West are typically low.  Leica Miami prices, for instance,  are generally significantly higher, since they will only sell an S006 (or M9 variant) with new sensor and service, and S lenses with new AF motors. All of their used inventory is inspected carefully and often either sent to Leica or DAG before listing, sometimes with corresponding warranty extensions.

So, buyers have shopping choices, depending on needs, risk assessment, etc.
 

Jeff

[aksclix]

19 minutes ago, Sarnian said:

I had it in my cart but was having issues checking out so I missed it. Gutted!!

I would’ve bought it too and sold it for 2K 😂😂 

[aksclix]

1 minute ago, Jeff S said:

Because they apparently priced in the potential for sensor corrosion, as warned in the item description.  Used prices for S gear at Camera West are typically low.  Leica Miami prices, for instance,  are generally significantly higher, since they will only sell an S006 (or M9 variant) with new sensor and service, and S lenses with new AF motors. All of their used inventory is inspected carefully and often either sent to Leica or DAG before listing, sometimes with corresponding warranty extensions.

So, buyers have shopping choices, depending on needs, risk assessment, etc.
 

Jeff

Yes, even for camera west this was significantly lower compared to previous stocks.. 

[Jeff S]

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24 minutes ago, aksclix said:

I would’ve bought it too and sold it for 2K 😂😂 

Maybe you should call them to discuss, and get on a first call list for any similar future acquisitions.  😊  

Jeff

[Sarnian]

29 minutes ago, aksclix said:

I would’ve bought it too and sold it for 2K 😂😂 

My thought, too! The profit would have gone towards getting my 007 refurbished. 

[alan.y]

Camera West listed another S 006 for $999 a few months ago. May have been the same one.

 

[analog-digital]

Am 27.12.2020 um 02:25 schrieb glenerrolrd:

Don t buy any S2 or S 006 unless the sensor has been replaced .   If the camera needs a sensor replacement the repair cost is as much as $7000.  Way over the value of the camera .  

From April 2021 on the price is approx $ 3300.-

[davidmknoble]

On 12/25/2020 at 3:34 PM, Stuart Richardson said:

Phrased in this way, the answer is very simple. Yes. The image quality of the S2 and S006 is still incredibly good (I think in most cases better) compared with modern cameras. That said, your SL2 will have higher resolution than they do in most cases, due to the higher resolution sensor and the sharper SL lenses (which also have more depth of field, so often more is in focus). The S lenses are still extremely good, and they have a different rendering of DOF, since you are using a longer lens for an equivalent angle of view. The S006 is a considerably more usable camera than the S2 in terms of handling, in that it has a better screen, an easier interface and faster performance. The image quality between the two is essentially identical, however. If you need to photograph above ISO 640 or so, the SL2 and modern cameras will start to quickly surpass the S in image quality, though of course the look will still be different.

@Stuart Richardson,  Just catching up on posts, and this is the second time I read this.  What do you mean by the SL lenses have more DOF?  With same focal length and same f/stop, is the DOF not essentially the same?  So, isn’t the Elmarit S 35mm at f/11 the same DOF as the APO SL 35mm at f/11 and the same DOF as the Summicron M 35mm ASPH at f/11?

I know the apparent DOF of similar viewpoints is more shallow on the S.  So, the 45mm S lens with a viewpoint of 35mm, has less DOF at f/4 then an APO SL 35mm at f/4, but because it is a different focal length.

Just making sure I haven’t missed something…

Best.

David.

[Stuart Richardson]

Hi David. I mean exactly that...that given the same angle of view, the S lenses have shallower DOF. But you are right, if you use the same lens on both bodies, the DOF is the same. There may be some differences due to different lens formulas, but what I was getting at was that if you are using an SL with a 35mm APO SL, the equivalent lens on the S is a 45mm and has a bit shallower depth of field at equal apertures.

[mgrayson3]

"Equivalence" is like pineapple on pizza. Some people get very worked up about it. I think of it like this: Suppose you want two prints of the same size of images captured by two cameras at the same position and time but with different sized sensors (say a factor of 2). What settings will make the two prints look as close as possible, i.e., no really obvious differences. 

FoV must be the same, so the larger sensor needs a lens of twice the focal length.

Exposure time must be the same so the guy jumping over the puddle is equally motion-blurred.

f-stop must twice as large (smaller aperture) on the bigger frame camera to get the same depth of field, i.e., guy in the background is equally blurred.(this isn't obvious, but one can calculate it or do geometric optics. I can go on at great length on ways to see this, but take it as given for now).

And because of all the above, the ISO on the bigger camera must be twice as high (stopped down lens and same shutter speed).

Any deviation from those will cause a vastly different final print. These settings are as close as you can get. And I never used the word "equivalence." Of course a static or distant scene will render some of these differences immaterial.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

Aren't your numbers a bit large? I know that for 4x5 and 8x10 the lenses with equivalent views are double the focal length (so a 150mm on 4x5 has the same angle of view as a 300mm on 8x10), yet the film area is four times the size, not double. In any case, I think whether or not an equivalent is really relevant depends quite a bit on the composition, and it is much more of an influence when shooting with shallow depth of field. At least with the S and SL, I don't think the differences are that dramatic. The S sensor is not massively larger than full frame SL2 sensor...it is a 1.2x crop (or .8x, depending on which way you go). The SL lenses are typically faster, so in most cases the extra stop or more can provide a pretty similar DOF. My experience with the S3 and SL2 is that once they are processed, it is pretty hard to tell the difference at a normal scale, unless you are used to the color differences or the nuanced variations in the lens character.

[mgrayson3]

Sorry if I was unclear. In my example, 8x10 would be considered twice as large as 4x5. Of course, "equivalence" is impossible if the two sensors have different aspect ratios. For a given final image, the ratio would be the linear multiple of the part of the sensor covered by the image.

I'm also making no claims as to how dramatic the difference is (although there is a reason LF photographers use f/64). I stand by my original statement concerning the S and SL - use the one you like more.

[helged]

Looking for a S006 with new (non-corroding) sensor: Anyone out there? Or knowing about some for sale...? 

[tiwafluet]

Just found this one: https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/leica-s-006-mit-neuem-sensor-von-leica-und-70mm-summarit/2134461413-245-9630

But quite expensive imo.

[helged]

52 minutes ago, tiwafluet said:

Just found this one: https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/leica-s-006-mit-neuem-sensor-von-leica-und-70mm-summarit/2134461413-245-9630

But quite expensive imo.

Thanks! And I agree, it's on the expensive side.

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Hallo,

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[BigBabyEarl]

On 6/23/2022 at 8:33 AM, tiwafluet said:

Just found this one: https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/leica-s-006-mit-neuem-sensor-von-leica-und-70mm-summarit/2134461413-245-9630

But quite expensive imo.

How do you even buy this in the states?

[tiwafluet]

1 hour ago, BigBabyEarl said:

How do you even buy this in the states?

The website is mainly intended for selling stuff in Germany. But if the seller agrees you could buy from other countries as well. Or you have a "middleman" in Germany.

Of course both would need a good portion of trust. And probably some fees and taxes.