First M lens - Leica Elmarit 28mm f2.8 ASPH (latest) vs Zeiss Biogon 28mm f2.8

[pippy]

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1 hour ago, 28framelines said:

Wait wait. I thought the v1 ASPH was not the same form factor as the one that was released in 2016. What are their differences?

The v1 ASPH was released in 2006 and is the one featured in my earlier link. It really is a tiny lens.

The main difference between the v1 and v2 in use is that whereas the v1 has a small, plastic clip-on hood which disappears in the v/f because it tapers towards the front edge (as seen in said link) the v2 has a larger metal screw-on hood which has a cut-out in the corner to allow through-vision to get around the finder-blockage problem as seen here;

https://www.parkcameras.com/shop/leica-elmarit-m-28mm-f28-asph-lens-black-anodised_l242574m?source=aw&awc=6241_1608313609_eb7395c3441468b00cd036f1b48486d0&utm_source=AWIN&utm_medium=Affiliate&utm_campaign=639029

The hood-size was the deciding factor for me rather than any possible difference in IQ. Rockwell says the optical design is the same. Others say otherwise.

Philip.

EDIT : I see Arnaud and I were posting at the same time!...

Edited December 18, 2020 by pippy

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[tom.w.bn]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Ko.Fe.:

With only this lens as the lens you might get into famous Zeiss wobble soon.

 

The Zeiss wobble is not a common thing. I had it with the Sonnar 50 and I think it was mainly reported for this lens. Fixed the wobble with the help of a tooth pick in a minute. Was on vacation and had no other tool with me. Really easy to fix. No problem with other Zeiss lenses that I own for more than 10 years now.

[wda]

1 hour ago, 28framelines said:

Haha thank you for all the responses! To answer questions about what type of portraiture: definitely environmental. Think Joe Greer, but without much of his skill! 😂

as for the distortion I was talking about: I’m coming from the Fujifilm xf18mm f2 (27mm FF equiv.) lens, which has distortion this way and that all the way to Sunday. Most people hate the lens, but I really enjoy it. That being said, it really tends to warp things (not perspective distortion, but lens distortion). 
 

lastly, some of you mentioned pairing it with a 50mm, and I can’t agree more! My current lens setup is the FF equivalent of a 28/50 setup. I just happen to prefer 28 for most things.

I’m going to do a bit more research, maybe see them in person. The Zeiss still seems compelling, and maybe the ASPH v1 might be a good option, but I really would prefer compact and my understanding of the V1 ASPH Elmarit is that it isn’t as compact. Who knows, maybe I’ll end up with the Elmarit anyway, because as some of you stated, I might simply asking myself “what if” all the time haha.

As you are so fixed on a 28mm fl, I suggest you revisit the Q option, either model has its own pros and cons and are delightful to use, with spectacular results.

[28framelines]

1 hour ago, Mr.Prime said:

As you are looking for new lenses for your camera - first off congrats on getting the new Leica M !

I've not much experience with m-mount glass but if it's helpful I will mention that I've picked up a couple of lenses now from Voigtlander specifically because I've not been comfortable with Leica pricing. So far I've been very pleased with the results and I have found the build quality of these lenses to be very good. I have a 35mm/1.4 and a skopar 25/f4 (screw mount so not relevant here). I think the Voigtlander range can be an alternative to Zeiss in your considerations.

 

My recommendation is for 50mm focal length, it's versatile, suitable for portraits in my experience where you want more than just a face and shoulders (otherwise longer, even 135mm would be nice if you can focus it accurately).

Hi! Thanks for that! I'm excited to get into the M system. Yes, the 50mm is definitely a consideration for portrait work when I want something that focuses a bit more on the individual - I find that I just prefer the environmental portraiture of wider lenses most often, however I have a 50 FF equivalent on my Fuji system for precisely this type of work.

[28framelines]

29 minutes ago, wda said:

As you are so fixed on a 28mm fl, I suggest you revisit the Q option, either model has its own pros and cons and are delightful to use, with spectacular results.

I don't think I'm going to go the Q route. Part of the reason I'm switching to an M-A is specifically for a lack of electronics. My fuji gear has been in the shop at least 2 months of the year the past couple years for one malfunction or another (all not my fault, I take extremely good care of my gear) and to be honest, I'm just done with electronic equipment (coming from a Software Developer by trade). I also enjoy shooting film. At one point in time, I very much considered switching to the Q2, but I'm so put off by camera gear that uses a battery and lenses that use a motor, that I don't know if I'd consider it.

[Mr.Prime]

44 minutes ago, 28framelines said:

Hi! Thanks for that! I'm excited to get into the M system. Yes, the 50mm is definitely a consideration for portrait work when I want something that focuses a bit more on the individual - I find that I just prefer the environmental portraiture of wider lenses most often, however I have a 50 FF equivalent on my Fuji system for precisely this type of work.

I'm certain that you have more experience than I and in the end you know what you want, you just need a little encouragement !

If 50mm is too long, why not the Voigtlander Nokton 35/1.4 - I think it's still not too short so as to create perspective distortion when you do want to get a little close to the subject and it is at least a lens I have so I can say in all honesty that it's a very nice option at an equally likable price point. It's relatively compact and lightweight so does not feel at all out of place on the front of an 'M'.

I must confess that I'm also interested in the Zeiss Sonnar 50/1.5 for it's unique properties but I've yet to try one.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Mr.Prime

[pippy]

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3 hours ago, Matlock said:

I suppose that is technically correct but the Elmarit-C 40mm is much, much smaller.

I suppose Mr. Rockwell (and possibly Leitz / Leica themselves if they were his source?) might have been talking, specifically about for use with the M-series cameras - with no 40mm framelines - as opposed to lenses which had been made in M-mount?

I've always liked the CL cameras and lenses but have never used one of their lenses on the M. Having realised that 40mm seems to be my 'Goldilocks' focal length I might try out the Summicron but as I already have - and absolutely LOVE - the Voigtlander 40mm f1.4 Nokton there doesn't seem to be much point. The Summicron is smaller, of course, which is a 'plus'.

Same story with the Leitz CL / Minolta CLT 28mm. Lovely lens but...I have the Elmarit. Which brings us full-circle.

Philip.

Edited December 18, 2020 by pippy

[Ko.Fe.]

3 hours ago, tom.w.bn said:

The Zeiss wobble is not a common thing. I had it with the Sonnar 50 and I think it was mainly reported for this lens. Fixed the wobble with the help of a tooth pick in a minute. Was on vacation and had no other tool with me. Really easy to fix. No problem with other Zeiss lenses that I own for more than 10 years now.

 

https://lavidaleica.com/content/zeiss-zm-lenses scroll to known issues.

 

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97703 basically 50% of responded had zeiss wobble.

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/leica-m-50-mm-planar-vs-summicron-vs-summarit.418609/  Read Gus Lazzari comment, you might even know who is he.

Zeiss used to have special service for lens wobble. I forgot how much it was. 

[Matlock]

10 hours ago, pippy said:

I suppose Mr. Rockwell (and possibly Leitz / Leica themselves if they were his source?) might have been talking, specifically about for use with the M-series cameras - with no 40mm framelines - as opposed to lenses which had been made in M-mount?

I've always liked the CL cameras and lenses but have never used one of their lenses on the M. Having realised that 40mm seems to be my 'Goldilocks' focal length I might try out the Summicron but as I already have - and absolutely LOVE - the Voigtlander 40mm f1.4 Nokton there doesn't seem to be much point. The Summicron is smaller, of course, which is a 'plus'.

Same story with the Leitz CL / Minolta CLT 28mm. Lovely lens but...I have the Elmarit. Which brings us full-circle.

Philip.

I also have the Voigtlander 40mm f1.4 Nokton which is a superb lens. However I decided that I would try the 40mm Elmarit-C (the one withdrawn by Leica on the same day it was released because of it's very poor performance) on my M10. It is really tiny and the performance, though not up to the standard of the Summicron or Nokton, is perfectly acceptable for point and shoot type of work. I also have the Minolta 28mm M Rokkor but it is huge compared to the 28mm Elmarit. Here is a quick shot I took from my window with the Elmarit C the other day.

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[Matlock]

Mind you a couple of days later the view had changed somewhat.

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[otto.f]

15 hours ago, 28framelines said:

maybe see them in person

I would do that indeed because the Zeiss is quite big, whereas the Elmarit has that classic format of original Leica lenses from the past. And that was where the M was about, compact gear but sturdy. Unlike the photo shown above, I don’t see the idea of photographing without hoods and the Zeiss is with the hood on quite a thing. Besides, but that’s how my eyes work, I find the Elmarit the most Zeissy from the most commonly used Leica M lenses: it has a good sharpness but without the sometimes a bit overdone microcontrast in modern, Karbe designed, M lenses. But probably a bit more than the Biogon and I would prefer that for analogue photography.  Last and perhaps least, would the Biogon fit on an M-A, esthetically? Not my thing...

[derleicaman]

I had the Zeiss 28/2.8 and it is a very good lens. I then acquired the 28/2.8 ASPH v1, and after using them side by side, sold the Zeiss and kept the Leica. Image quality not too different, but really appreciate the much smaller form factor of the Leica lens.

I also have the ZM 25/2.8 which is one of the sharpest lenses I have ever owned. I also have the 24/3.4 ASPH Elmar-M. These two are so good and so close to each other performance wise, I have kept both of them.

[tom.w.bn]

Am 18.12.2020 um 22:32 schrieb Ko.Fe.:

 

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97703 basically 50% of responded had zeiss wobble.

Oh that strange poll. I remember it, when I was a member in that forum. I had four Zeiss lenses. The Sonnar 50 had the wobble issue, the others not. I could not vote for "all my lenses are rock solid" (because one out of four had the issue) but only give one vote for the lens with the problem. The other 3 lenses would be outside of the vote. Does not make much sense to count the "no problem" numbers then. I did not vote here.

But I did vote in that poll:   Zeiss 35 Biogon vs. Leica Summicron 35 ASPH. 

https://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47704&page=10

508 vs. 495 for the Zeiss lens after 13 years....   🙂