Future implications for M10/M10-R of the SL2/SL2-S paradigm?

[jonoslack]

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18 hours ago, adan said:

 

There seems to be some confusion about what dynamic range is. As it says right on the label - it is a "range."

It cannot be measured by looking at only one end of the range (e.g. blown highlights vs. no blown highlights). Any more than a piece of string can be measured by putting only one end on the ruler.

The M10-R may hold highlights better than the M10 (vanilla),

but:

1) unless one also looks at the amount of shadow detail in the same picture, one still does not know the "range."

 

Hi There 

It's worth mentioning in this context that I didn't even mention Dynamic Range in my post - and it wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about the M10-R holding highlights better - which it does in spades, and this, combined with the the lower base ISO allows you to shoot with a wider aperture in bright lighting. . . . . which was the main reason I bought the M10-R

FWIW! but it's funny how it's turned into a discussion about dynamic range - I imagine the M10r has more than the M10, but as you say, that's quite another consideration and nothing to do with nasty highlight rendition

[jonoslack]

On 12/19/2020 at 12:34 PM, David_miller70 said:

As someone who has just entered the world of Leica with a M10-R, I really don’t like this thread 😞

Hi David

Well - I had the luxury of shooting with an M10-R alongside my M10 for about 6 months, and my initial disapproval changed over that time - Nowadays 95% of my M photography is with the R - I love it - the improved highlight characteristics and the extra croppability are a real bonus, and I don't find that images are blurred below 1/500th. Enjoy your camera! Each to his own, but personally, you can prise my M10-r out of my cold dead hands!

 

[Kwesi]

Sometimes I do wonder if all this hullabaloo about sensors capable of canyon sized dynamic range isn't much ado about nothing in practical terms.

What ever happened to just exposing correctly based on your understanding of how your cameras light meter reacts to light. Leica has made this very simple and easy since the M6.

M100-P 28/2 v2  Exposed plus half stop in camera

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[Dr No]

4 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

Sometimes I do wonder if all this hullabaloo about sensors capable of canyon sized dynamic range isn't much ado about nothing in practical terms.

What ever happened to just exposing correctly based on your understanding of how your cameras light meter reacts to light. Leica has made this very simple and easy since the M6.

M100-P 28/2 v2  Exposed plus half stop in camera

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More dynamic range isn't just about exposure though. If you're happy with the way your digital camera linearly renders your images then it doesn't matter.

[Dr No]

On 12/22/2020 at 10:03 PM, Steven said:

Motion blur 

I did have a strange streaking blur on one camera once where the sensor had come loose from it's mount. But it also had a defined point of focus and a tilt-shift effect caused by the scheimpflug the sensor was creating.

Blanket motion blur will be movement of the photographer (or subject). Higher pixel counts do reveal more movement if it's there in any case. Some people just do have more steady hands than others - just ask surgeons!

Even on 24MP I will keep the highest shutter speed possible for the sharpest image. Occasional motion blur is even possible at 60th on 50mm depending in environment, circumstances and the nature of what some shoot.

But the jump from 24 to 40MP generally shouldn't cause too much a problem, none that can't be mitigated with technique.

If you're happy with he 24MP, then great, that is an easy solution. But maybe you were a little too hasty in getting rid of the R!😁

Edited December 24, 2020 by Dr No

[Kwesi]

17 minutes ago, Dr No said:

More dynamic range isn't just about exposure though

Could you please explain a bit further?

[Dr No]

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21 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

Could you please explain a bit further?

A digital camera renders shadows and highlights linearly.

If you want to alter the tones for aesthetic purposes, then with a lower dynamic range camera there is only so much you can do before introducing noise into shadows and show loss of detail because you're only lifting the noise floor. If you want bright shadows, you can't create it in camera like you can with exposure and colour negative film.

Or, as said, if you're happy with the way your digital camera renders, then sure, Dynamic range doesn't matter so much when exposing correctly. It's more like shooting transparency film.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Dr No

[Kwesi]

Thanks!

I think I'm finally getting it. It gives you more flexibility in post capture processing.

[jonoslack]

2 hours ago, Steven said:

Nice to see you around here Jono. 

In the past 24 hours, something occurred to me, a justification to my blurry photos. But im not sure if it can really be the reason yet. I'll post soon. 

Hi Steven

you mustn't think I was disagreeing - what suits one person doesn't suit another (was what I was trying to say!).

[Kwesi]

The v2 has that Umami! It holds detail and color and depth so effortlessly  on the M sensor.

I hear the Lux has that cinematic quality which I think you would love.

Here it is again on the M10-P, wide open

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[Kwesi]

Umami is Japanese for Deliciousness - its like a word that describes that special taste that makes a meal so good.

The 35 FLE is my go to lens but I do love the 28 for its storytelling capability.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Kwesi
missing words

[Guest Nowhereman]

^ Umami is more specific than that. See this New Yorker article, which includes the following:

Quote

The word and its concept were coined, in the early twentieth century, by a Japanese chemist named Kikunae Ikeda. Curious to know what was chemically responsibly for the distinct and dominant flavor of dashi, the stock that’s a staple of Japanese cooking, Ikeda examined closely the molecular composition of one of its main ingredients, a variety of seaweed. He determined that the culprit was a single substance, glutamic acid, and he named its taste umami, from the Japanese word for delicious, umai; umami translates roughly to “deliciousness.” Taste research from the past fifteen years has confirmed that molecular compounds in glutamic acid—glutamates—bind to specific tongue receptors; this, apparently, is what makes the magic. Any food in which glutamic acid occurs naturally or after cooking, aging, or fermentation is considered umami. In crystalline form, glutamates are known as MSG—palpable as sugar or salt, the reason why it’s hard to stop eating even the worst Chinese takeout.

________________________
Frog Leaping photobook

[Kwesi]

Information like this is what makes this forum top notch!

Where else can you go and meander from Dynamic Range to MSG? And hopefully back to the topic at hand.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Kwesi

[adan]

4 hours ago, Dr No said:

A digital camera renders shadows and highlights linearly.

Only up to a point. 1 photon = 1 electron = 1 unit of charge or voltage. 2136 photons = 2136 electrons = 2136 units of charge/voltage. Etc.

A straight-line relationship (so long as quantum errors are allowed for).

But as I showed previously, all general-use digital cameras remove that linearity with a tone curve, to render more like films' characteristic curves. With a non-linear "toe" and "shoulder." (Except for technical/scientific imaging where the linearity may be useful data).

See my previous output graphs, compared to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitometry#/media/File:H&D_curve.png

That happens in the A/D conversion process (which is basically a "black box" - we users don't know exactly what goes on in there, unless we have really sophisticated tools to read the programming/firmware code).

What we users get out of a camera is no longer linear by the time we see it.

Hasn't been for decades. It was obvious to the engineers that linear output did not produce "acceptable" photographs. Even the first scanning-digital Viking photos from Mars (1976) had the output de-linearized and color-balanced through algorithms so they would "look right." The Viking landers had their own "color checker" and grayscale targets, mounted right on the spacecraft, for the on-board cameras to photograph as tests to calibrate the tone and color curves. See images here:

https://www.gillevin.com/Mars/5555-29.PDF

And the M10-R quite probably applies a different tone curve than the M10(vanilla). Resulting in what Jono describes and demonstrates. The M10-R allows more highlight recovery. The M10 allows a large amount of shadow recovery (I have seen no examples of how the M10-R does at that end of the scale).

Fortunately, we all have the option to apply our OWN non-linear tone curves, on top of whatever the camera applies.

And yes, higher DR (and higher-bit-count data) gives us more room in which to make our own manipulations. Just as color negs usually give more leeway to adjust a picture than color slides.

Edited December 24, 2020 by adan

[LocalHero1953]

7 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Hi David

Well - I had the luxury of shooting with an M10-R alongside my M10 for about 6 months, and my initial disapproval changed over that time - Nowadays 95% of my M photography is with the R - I love it - the improved highlight characteristics and the extra croppability are a real bonus, and I don't find that images are blurred below 1/500th. Enjoy your camera! Each to his own, but personally, you can prise my M10-r out of my cold dead hands!

 

I wouldn't argue with you, but I'm beginning to feel the same about the SL2-S, though it's less portable. With the Apo-Summicron-SL 35 (also newly acquired) it is a match made in heaven.

[LocalHero1953]

6 minutes ago, Steven said:

I'm on the brink of buying the SL35... so tempted. 

Just do it. Having tried it already, you know you won't regret it. 

[Jeff S]

If the rumored SL 28-70 f2.8 comes to fruition, I’ll be curious about its size and performance compared to the SL Summicron primes.
 

Jeff

[MrFriendly]

On 12/17/2020 at 12:25 PM, Nowhereman said:

 So, my three desiderata for the M10 successor are that it have (1) a 24 MP sensor, (2) good JPG modes, and (3) IBIS — although the latter may be unlikely.

My three desiderata for the M system:

1. Electronic Shutter:  hopefully electronic shutters are good enough to the point t that now we can ditch the mechanical shutter completely, or at least be an option.  With an electronic shutter we can finally use our fast lenses without the need to use an ND filter or stopping down.

2. Curved Sensor: they've been talking about this for many years.  I'm not an optical engineer, but I think this could take the M system to the next level.

3. Vertically Stacked Sensor: basically what Foveon tried to do and failed.  Bayer filter and all the similar junk should go, I don't want 'em : -)

All the above have to do with the sensor, and Leica doesn't make sensors😑

[tom.w.bn]

Am 17.12.2020 um 19:25 schrieb Nowhereman:

Incidentally, Erwin Puts, in his current blog post, with the title "24 or 47 MP?", feels that Leica has made ill-considered decisions in going to 47 MP, although his argument is not that coherent.
 

You mean that guy who quit Leica and does not seem to understand anything new?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[farnz]

9 hours ago, MrFriendly said:

basically what Foveon tried to do and failed

I have an excellent Foveon sensor in my Sigma SD14 so I'm not sure why you think it failed.  Commercially the Foveon has been squeezed out by the CMOS sensors in the CaNikoSoFujis but the sensor's concept and its performance are still excellent and its colours (imho) are preferable to those from either CCD or CMOS sensors.

With respect to mechanical vs electronic shutters, both have their place.  I would have to think very hard before buying a future with only an electronic shutter owing to rolling shutter effects and banding.  Leica's SL family of cameras has both mechanical and electronic shutters so that could be a happy compromise for the M as well.  (I also get fed up with attaching ND's to my Noctilux so I understand where you're coming from.)

Pete.