LEICA SL2 VIDEO - Best external recorder and difference between SL2-S Video

[jacksbenjamin]

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Hi all, first off want to thank everyone who contributes to the education and participation here, it’s a wonderful Leica community and grateful for it!

Two part question: 

1- who has had great experience with the SL2 for professional video? What blows my mind is that you have to use an external recorder to shoot any FPS over 29.97 in C4K Log mode for SL2, for professional use I believe it’s totally needed to shoot LOG in any of the frame rates yet the camera really only performs at its best with an external recorder, which may not want to use all the time — thus you are stuck with 29.FPS and below internally.

To me shooting non LOG gives far too strong a “baked in” look. So, what external recorders are you using? Also are you adding the Leica vertical handgrip to help with power outages given how power hungry the camera is when doing video?

2- do you know if the SL2-S can do higher frame rates then 29fps in Log mode when shooting internally?

many thanks for your thoughts on this!

- Ben Jacks // www.Ben-jacks.com

Edited December 10, 2020 by jacksbenjamin

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[sebben]

For a start the SL2 has lots of moire in the full frame mode and is unusable with recorder or without.

It’s usable in the s35 mode but has limited dynamic range above middle grey so you need to have a lot of fill to lift the shadows otherwise your highlights will clip very easily. 

The recorder will mostly give you a better codec to work with instead of processor intensive h264. 

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, jacksbenjamin said:

What blows my mind is that you have to use an external recorder to shoot any FPS over 29.97 in C4K Log mode for SL2

 

Leica's site says 59.95 for either camera in C4K 10-bit. I have seen other specs on other sites, but I assume that Leica is correct.

 

2 hours ago, jacksbenjamin said:

Also are you adding the Leica vertical handgrip to help with power outages given how power hungry the camera is when doing video?

You can attach an external battery via USB-C, as long as the battery meets the USB PD spec. Other threads here explain this.

Some D-Tap batteries have USB outputs that meet the USB-PD spec. Keep in mind that you probably also need a USB cable that meets the spec.

[BernardC]

44 minutes ago, sebben said:

It’s usable in the s35 mode but has limited dynamic range above middle grey so you need to have a lot of fill to lift the shadows otherwise your highlights will clip very easily.

That really depends on what ISO you rate it at. The sensor is probably around ISO 500-800 for video, so it will definitely clip highlights if you shoot at 100 or 200. That's why many professional video cameras have internal ND filters.

[sebben]

23 hours ago, Steven said:

What are your expectations for video in the SL2S? 

No morié would be a great start. I don’t want to go back to the days of the canon 5DMKii

 

 

[sebben]

23 hours ago, BernardC said:

That really depends on what ISO you rate it at. The sensor is probably around ISO 500-800 for video, so it will definitely clip highlights if you shoot at 100 or 200. That's why many professional video cameras have internal ND filters.

It’s poor even at base iso shooting L Log or whatever they call it in Leica land. 

I know all about ND filters 😊 I shoot video on an Alexa Mini. I’m just going to bite the bullet and pick up the M Mount.

https://www.leitz-cine.com/m-mount-for-arri-alexa-mini-and-amira/

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by sebben

[BernardC]

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16 hours ago, sebben said:

It’s poor even at base iso shooting L Log or whatever they call it in Leica land. 

Just wondering, what do you consider "base ISO" with the SL2?

[sebben]

I suppose it’s iso400 for L log. I didn’t test it extensively after it became clear the the full frame mode has moiré. 
 

and on that subject you can see Leicas response (which I find hilarious) on the cined website. 

https://www.cined.com/leica-sl2-first-impression-and-sample-footage/

  Moiré: The camera is designed without optical low pass filter in order to maximize the acutance for still images. When recording video in full frame mode, we use pixel mix to get the 4k resolution. But the camera offers as well a full scan option by switching to APS-C format (means roughly Super 35). We all know, that there is some demand for full frame 4k filming and SL2 does follow this demand in order to make the aesthetics of the large sensor available for specific applications. But if the aesthetics of the large format is not needed and a more technical approach regarding image quality is required, the APS-C option does deliver better performance with SL2´s high resolution sensor. It will provide video without pixel mix and on top better rolling shutter performance. (Rolling shutter is already pretty good in full frame with this camera vs. competition)

On top, Leica SL lenses are designed for ultimate detail contrast, offering MTF >50% at 60 LP/mm. The drawback of such lenses is the tendency to produce Moiré if the lens resolution is better than the sensor resolution. Regarding Moiré for such periodic structures it is the best solution to use an optical low pass filter inside the camera or with a lens with low detail contrast performance. So it is tricky to find the right balance, but our philosophy is always to maintain as much as possible detail (same is true for the noise reduction, as you correctly reported in your article). So we do not necessarily see this as a weakness of the concept, but potential customers need to know the special characteristics of our product: If you would like to maintain maximum detail, this camera is most probably the best in the market and for non periodic structures it will not cause any issues. If average detail sharpness (and that does produce a somehow boring look) is required and the absence of any Moiré is most important, a camera with OPLF will serve such requirements much better.

Edited December 12, 2020 by sebben

[jacksbenjamin]

Thanks for your on going thoughts and responses @sebben and @BernardC really appreciate your respective opinions and links shared.

that is a pretty crazy response from Leica Sebben, sad to see that, I have not seen any moire yet when filming but I have never brought it to a professional commercial shoot, we too shoot on Alexa minis and Red Gemini’s with OLPFs I will say the footage looks great on the SL2 on Leica M glass from 90s which may point to their response on when moire happens with L mount native glass and its level of resolution. 
 

it’s certainly interesting to Leica marketing the SL2-s as a seemingly better video tool then the SL2 when it’s the same specs, perhaps to drive more market share towards the new model.

 

I will have to look into the external recorders more but wish they could provide a firmware update to let you do log in all FPS, I use ND filters and always watch histogram so clipping is not really a huge problem if you know what to look for 

Edited December 12, 2020 by jacksbenjamin

[sebben]

I was using m glass with the sl2 and was getting moire in fine structures like hair. 
 

you can see it a lot on buildings as well as illustrated in the video on the cined site. 
 

sure you can use NDs but that won’t help your crushed mid tones unless you use a lot of fill light.

[jacksbenjamin]

1 hour ago, sebben said:

I was using m glass with the sl2 and was getting moire in fine structures like hair. 
 

you can see it a lot on buildings as well as illustrated in the video on the cined site. 
 

sure you can use NDs but that won’t help your crushed mid tones unless you use a lot of fill light.

That’s unfortunate to hear about the moire hair with the M glass, I gotta keep testing the SL2 for where it shines, if it at all, I love the form factor for small run and gun but not holding much hope. 
 

I have found adding a low con 3 or 5 is helpful if you have to shoot non Log so you can get all FPS in camera and not deal with external recorder, it dulls the baked in crunched look. 
 

hope you are shooting a camera system you enjoy, sounds like the SL2 experience really did not sit well with you. 

[ruskkyle]

I’m trying to find more info on the SL2-S’ 4K output. Appreciate I may need to wait til more people have it in hand but any info appreciated!

- Is 50p/60p cropped to APS-C mode?

- Is Log available in all framerates?

- How will internal recording be improved by the Spring firmware update?

- Moire...

[jacksbenjamin]

3 hours ago, Steven said:

A bit of an off topic question, but it relates to the SL2 video and doesn't deserve a thread of its own. 

Is there a way, in video mode, to remap a custom button to rapidly switch between APC and 35mm mode? Please don't tell me Leica omitted this. This could be a reason for me to return the camera. 

Thanks in advance for your help.

Just checked my SL2 and dad to report it does not have that custom ability for that button  but when you switch in that menu mode it returns to that section quickly when you go back to menu.

keep us posted on what FPS are possible in LOG mode internally on your SL2-S please! Thanks // Ben

Edited December 13, 2020 by jacksbenjamin

[jacksbenjamin]

15 minutes ago, Steven said:

Extremely bad news. I'll answer with another bad news for you! 

I am new to the SL system so I don't master the menus well yet, but from what I am seeing, you can shoot L log All I (400mbps)  up to 29fps in 4k or C4k. Beyond that, you can still shoot in L log but you will have what seems to be an APSC crop, and the All I become Long GOP, with a slower data rate. Personally, as I only shoot 24fps, it doesn't affect me, but I can imagine that if I didn't make a mistake, this must be very underwhelming for a camera that is supposed to be video centric. 

Appreciate the update! So you can actively record in LOG mode in those other frame rates - 59.97 etc but in APSC (Super35 equiv) ?

 

Sometimes it shows those coming up but when you hit record it says use external recorder etc, the video results are certainly surprising, I will say I am not sure I need all the res of the SL2 for images and just wished they made LOG avail for all FPS was a major mis step 

[Slender]

APS-C or FF can be selected in all modes (2K, 4K, 4K DCI) except 5k Anamorphic on SL2. As long as you have the 10 bit option, you can choose your L-Log, HLG or none for gammuts.

If you want Log on speeds above 30fps, you need an Atomos... which is a must buy anyway for most serious video work in my opinion.

You CAN shoot 2K (FHD) at 60p 422 10 bits All I and log.

60 or 120 fps is great for video stuff, true. For cine, you mainly stick at 24 anyway.

Use diffusion, low-contrast filters or Hollywood promist on your digital cine cameras to get a more pleasing look and by-pass the alliasing caused by downscalling and sharp lenses. Cine lenses aren't as sharp as a 24-90 VE SL.

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Slender

[Slender]

The atomos has the great advantage of bypassing the internal recording entirely (thus saving battery life on camera), can be triggered via HDMI and is awesome to view everything properly -exposure-color-framing-focus...etc at any angle. Not to mention the slight gain in quality and the monstruous performance gain in post-processing. The SDD compare favorably in terms of cost compared to SD cards in the long run and you can edit from it directly.

[ruskkyle]

Thanks @Slender, I use a Shogun Inferno often with my FS5. But that is a bigger system anyway and my questions relate specifically to the SL2-S and internal recording.

it seems the APS-C crop of the original SL2 remains. That is a shame.

Edited December 13, 2020 by ruskkyle

[Slender]

2 hours ago, ruskkyle said:

Thanks @Slender, I use a Shogun Inferno often with my FS5. But that is a bigger system anyway and my questions relate specifically to the SL2-S and internal recording.

it seems the APS-C crop of the original SL2 remains. That is a shame.

You are welcome. I am not sure however to which form of crop you refer to.
Most users with PL cine lenses will happily do with the APS-C mode selected anyway, because most of those lenses (summicron or Summilux Cine for example) do not cover large format/FF.

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[ruskkyle]

1 hour ago, Slender said:

You are welcome. I am not sure however to which form of crop you refer to.
Most users with PL cine lenses will happily do with the APS-C mode selected anyway, because most of those lenses (summicron or Summilux Cine for example) do not cover large format/FF.

Yes but this is a full frame mirrorless camera designed for full frame L mount lenses, first and foremost.

[Stuart Richardson]

While I would love Leica to truly up their game to the level of being a pro solution for video, it seems like their cameras should be viewed more as stills cameras that can do decent video in a pinch, rather than able to stand alongside Panasonic, Sony and Canon when it comes to DSLR/Mirrorless video cameras. I am using the S3 and SL2, along with the Panasonic S1. I did not do extensive tests, but enough to see that I would rather just stick with the Panasonic for video. At the price that it is at, with the features it has, and being the exact same mount, so it natively takes almost every lens (the only exception I am aware of is that it will not autofocus with the S lenses)...the body costs half the price of a L summicron. Overall, I find it a bit hard to see the use case of adding an SL2S to an SL2 kit if your goal was video. Just get an S5, S1, S1H or Sigma FP1. As a stills camera for people who do not need 47mp and want to shoot M and L lenses, however, it seems like a great option.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Stuart Richardson