From A7R4 to Leica SL2

[uranage]

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5 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

All cameras have a failure rate. Usually small. The SL2 is no exception. The original SL came out with huge bugs in its software. Drove me absolutely nuts. Most were resolved. After 6 months the camera was fantastic and it still is. The SL2 has been much much better. There appears to be an issue for some with video and third party lenses and a freezing issue I have yet to experience. But that's about it. I used the original commercially for three years and now the mk2. I have no hesitation using it as a work and play camera.

And maybe a bit less worrying about what Diglloyd, Tony and Chelsea etc and what they say after a few hours with a demo camera, or worse after never holding one. I've had the X1D and X1DII since launch day. The user experience is unparalleled. Nothing comes close. Not even the SL2 (SL was closer). If you expect a miniMF camera with CDAF to operate like an A9II you're bound to be disappointed. Not to mention several firmware updates. You want to know how a camera feels then rent one for a fortnight and do your own evaluations. People like Diglloyd are just in it for clicks, not accuracy.

Gordon

That's good to hear about the SL2! I'm actually on the fence between the Leica and the Fuji GFX now. Leaning towards the Leica...

About the X1D-II. Diglloyd said he experienced numerous lockups and ended up losing shots. I just can't afford that! If a camera does that once, I'll get rid of it immediately. Do you think he had a faulty unit or just an early firmware and now most of the bugs have been ironed out?

Also, everyone keeps saying the X1D user experience is so good ....because it is like a smart phone. But I hate my iPhone camera. The last thing I want from a real camera is to have all important controls behind an unresponsive touch screen which I can't even see in bright daylight. Even my beloved Porsche put Taycan's AC controls on the touch screen which is absolutely ridiculous and painful to use as you can't feel the buttons. What's your opinion on this?

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[BernardC]

The SL has been completely reliable for me after 4 years, certainly it's as good as any other professional camera, and better than most. Most of the issues that we see discussed here have to do with card failures and cosmetic faults. I don't want to diminish those, but those type of issues aren't specific to Leica. I certainly had more card issues with Canon, caused by fragile CF pins.

About lens distortion and sharpness, the ultimate manifestation of this is the fisheye lens. Fisheyes have huge distortion (by design), but they are also sharp from edge to edge, and small and fast for their aperture and focal length.

As with everything else in lens design, distortion is a compromise. Most mirrorless lenses allow a little more distortion (which can be corrected easily) in order to improve other aspects of overall performance. The key concept being overall performance. I understand why some people are concerned about computational optical correction, but these are digital imaging systems. You can't avoid having processed images.

Actually, you can avoid it, by buying M lenses and a film body.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

5 hours ago, uranage said:

That's good to hear about the SL2! I'm actually on the fence between the Leica and the Fuji GFX now. Leaning towards the Leica...

About the X1D-II. Diglloyd said he experienced numerous lockups and ended up losing shots. I just can't afford that! If a camera does that once, I'll get rid of it immediately. Do you think he had a faulty unit or just an early firmware and now most of the bugs have been ironed out?

Also, everyone keeps saying the X1D user experience is so good ....because it is like a smart phone. But I hate my iPhone camera. The last thing I want from a real camera is to have all important controls behind an unresponsive touch screen which I can't even see in bright daylight. Even my beloved Porsche put Taycan's AC controls on the touch screen which is absolutely ridiculous and painful to use as you can't feel the buttons. What's your opinion on this?

Maybe he had a dud? I don't know. He does seem to get a lot of gear that doesn't work when every other reviewer or user gets on just fine. My original X1D went to Cuba, Ireland and across Australia as well as a couple of hundred commercial shoots with no issues. It had the known sticky wheel issue which was fixed with a menu change. I've not had a single issue with my X1DII. My SL2 hasn't left home due to a certain nameless pandemic but the old SL did and my S1R. I've not had issues that stopped a shoot.

You should believe the people! The X1D has the best user interface on a camera. Period. And the best menus. Second best interface was the original SL followed by the SL2. SL2 menus are better than the first and as good as the Hasselblad. You have a choice. Get a camera filled with buttons (S1R) or not (SL2) both have good and bad. (both the S1R and SL2 have excellent layouts but the s1R has better buttons and the SL2 has a better touch interface). The implementation on the X1D is just brilliant. They say it's smart phone like because you can use swiping and zooming etc, like a phone. But it's not really. It's just that's the only comparison. It has the right amount of buttons and they're accessible. It's more about how HB have used the touch screen in such an intuitive and simple to use way. It's helped that the X1D doesn't need 16 pages of menu options. The rear screen on the X1DII is as good as a rear screen gets. It's huge and bright and responsive. It's glorious.

Personally I value handing, balance, usability and interface as much as sensor IQ. I can work with the sensors on most modern cameras. But I'm harsh on shitty design and feel. There's no excuse for a crappy rear touch screen interface (Sony) or menus (Sony and Olympus). Hasselblad and Leica do it best, by a long margin. You REALLY need to get hold of an X1D and an SL2 for a week each and use them extensively. And if you like mechanical dials then a Fujifilm as well. Don't listen to Diglloyd or me. You'll know when you pick up the right camera for you.

Gordon

[Jim B]

On 11/30/2020 at 9:12 AM, uranage said:

That's good to hear about the SL2! I'm actually on the fence between the Leica and the Fuji GFX now. Leaning towards the Leica...

About the X1D-II. Diglloyd said he experienced numerous lockups and ended up losing shots. I just can't afford that! If a camera does that once, I'll get rid of it immediately. Do you think he had a faulty unit or just an early firmware and now most of the bugs have been ironed out?

Also, everyone keeps saying the X1D user experience is so good ....because it is like a smart phone. But I hate my iPhone camera. The last thing I want from a real camera is to have all important controls behind an unresponsive touch screen which I can't even see in bright daylight. Even my beloved Porsche put Taycan's AC controls on the touch screen which is absolutely ridiculous and painful to use as you can't feel the buttons. What's your opinion on this?

The Leica SL2 has a huge battery/power problem. The camera errors out at 3/4 full battery with native Leica SL Lenses, and prevents high speed burst shooting or recording 4 k video. It is widely known and reported here on this forum by several users. Leica is aware of the problem and has done nothing to fix it. This is a one shot wonder camera, and is not professionally reliable. I’m sorry that I wasted 12k on a body and a lens for a camera that doesn’t work to spec.

The X1D had bugs when it was released buy have been resolved. I’ve traveled around the world with the camera. It’s very compact, gives a nice experience.  Great image quality. It is also a one shot wonder. It has single point auto focus, which you can quickly move via touchscreen and then take picture. It has no predictable auto focus. 

The Fuji 50s I traded in. It was like holding a plastic brick that actually made my hand ache. 
 

I’m not sure what you are looking for.  If you have been using a Sony, Canon, Nikon camera for several years,  you will mostly likely not be satisfied by the performance of any of these three cameras.  These camera’s are mainly for photographers where image quality is the highest priority, who are ready to settle for subpar performance. They are not suitable for sports, action, birds in flight etc.  They excel at still life, landscape etc.   

I’ve kept my X1D it’s a good Slow camera but I also have 35mm Cameras 

‘The SL2 random failures leave me feeling ripped off, and had ruined the user experience to the point I regret buying it.

The Fugi was literally a pain to use.

My Sony a7r4  tops them all in performance and reliability.  Not the best in low light. Good professional all around.  And the color science was greatly improved from the a7r3I

I think it’s for these reasons people are telling you to get a Lumix.  It will perform better than the Leica.  

There is a slight benefit from shooting a Leica SL Apo lens as compared to the Hasselblad.  However, the SL lenses at 5k moan and groan with scraping and clicking noises. Are you going to be happy with that? I certainly am not.  
 

 

[AZN]

3 hours ago, Jim B said:

My Sony a7r4  tops them all in performance and reliability.  Not the best in low light. Good professional all around.  And the color science was greatly improved from the a7r3I

I have the Sony 7RII + 7RIV and Leica SL TYP601.  They all have their uses.  BTW I hardly ever use autofocus, so don't care about AF-S vs AF-C, smile-detection, real-time tracking etc.

7RII is my "basher" for use in rough environments.  And I mean rough!  Coupled with a RRS L-bracket it has taken a beating and just keeps going.  Am amazed at how good the 42MP images still look, although the "zip-zip" shutter sound is irritating.

7RIV doesn't provide the image quality that the 7RII does, but it is good enough.  Much improved user experience with button clicks and shutter sound. What I also like is that you can use it for APSC and still get 25 MP images.  That makes my 24 GM f1.4 a dual use 24mm/ 35mm lens 😃

The SL TYP601 has a fantastic feel and the images I can get out of it are first-rate.  When coupled with Capture One and the right profile, the colours and contrast are fantastic.  It also works very well with "problematic" M glass, which the Sonys never could (despite Steve Huff's gushing reviews). Wish it was 32 MP though…

These three all work well for me.  I also have lot of film Hasselblad equipment, but have given up on anyone ever making a 56mm x 56mm digital back to use with them.

[Michael Markey]

8 minutes ago, AZN said:

 

7RII is my "basher" for use in rough environments.  And I mean rough!  Coupled with a RRS L-bracket it has taken a beating and just keeps going.  Am amazed at how good the 42MP images still look, although the "zip-zip" shutter sound is irritating.

 

Fully concur .I use an A7R2 and that shutter sound is beyond irritating .

Who ever waved that one through to final production ?

Edited December 12, 2020 by Michael Markey

[AZN]

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4 hours ago, Steven said:

I'd be interested to read these, if you have a link?

Hah.  This was for the Sony A7R (36 MP) back in 2014.  Just did a few google searches - couldn't find it.  Taken down?

Maybe others will have luck.

[TheEyesHaveIt]

Apologies for the bump after a couple of years but for those that had both systems, how much bulkier and heavier was the SL2?

[Photoworks]

4 hours ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

Apologies for the bump after a couple of years but for those that had both systems, how much bulkier and heavier was the SL2?

there is a big difference on the handling. SL2 has a good had position and grip. I find the Sony too small for my hands and with a heavy lens you feel it even more.
I age quality is similar but SL2 has an edge over the Sony , better sensor for adapted lenses, and the lenses from Leica have great resolution. EVF still a win on SL2.

Lenses from Leica are build to last decades and are incredible. they are heavier, especially the zooms. often not because they have metal in it, it is because there is lots of glass.

Newer lenses from Sony are very good too and performs amazing AF speeds. a bit lighter, and you feel it mostly if you have few lenses in a backpack.
Sigma lenses are almost the same for both system.

[cspiros]

I just recently switched from the A7RIII to the SL2-S and the size is meaningfully different. That being said, similar to Photoworks, I have larger hands and found the Sony body a bit uncomfortable and in various instances found my fingers pinched against lenses.  

For what it's worth, and I realize this all comes down to personal preference, the switch to the SL2-S all things considered was absolutely worth it.  I'm in love with the image quality that these sensors produce, I thoroughly enjoy the shooting experience and I've found the autofocus more than adequate (including chasing a sporadic 5 years old). I don't regret the switch, I have the camera in hand far more than I had the Sony purely because of the joy it brings me.

I say all this recognizing the question was geared toward the SL2 and not the SL2-S.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

14 hours ago, TheEyesHaveIt said:

Apologies for the bump after a couple of years but for those that had both systems, how much bulkier and heavier was the SL2?

That depends on how you build your system. If a body and a couple of f2 primes the Sony is way smaller. But the Leica APO's are way better. If you shoot with a bag of zooms the size difference is less noticeable, although the Leica zooms tend to be bigger and heavier than the Sigma/Panasonic options. Generally though it's easier to build a smaller lighter Sony kit than an SL one.

However, the SL bodies do balance better with the lenses. The bag might be heavier but you're less likely to get sore wrists from the SL2 if fast primes are your thing. And speaking of primes I don't think anyone makes a set of primes that rivals the SL Summicrons. Probably the best set of matched primes ever made, except the 24 and 21 are STILL not here.

Gordon