Leica Q2 Monochrome: Technical Specifications

[nwphil]

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34 minutes ago, piran said:

Possibly.

The 'prognostication' is (at best) an assessment by NITECORE of the amount of charge available for use if the charging were to be terminated at that point. A forecast or estimate ...nothing more really. TBH it's just an eye-candy hope, suck & see, educated guess without any decent provenance or written guarantee ...sorry.

I'm a dinosaur and come from the days when NiCd battery technology was utterly bleeding edge with an eye-watering price tag ...nowadays you probably couldn't pay anybody to take up its use;-/ Huh, portable lead acid batteries were all the rage back then (eg my old METZ hammerhead press flash) and for installations it had to be large refrigerator-sized lead acid screw topped wet cells (those were the days).  IAC portable battery charge analysis is a awkward trick to bring off - even in-house - let alone with another company's product! 

Was out and about this afternoon for a few hours and took just over a hundred frames down at Kynance Cove. With an overly luxurious 5mins standby optioned I probably had the LCD and/or the eyeviewer on continuously. Also it was cool out of the sunshine (5C so the car told me). Necessarily returned to base - thanks Leica R&D - I have to bluntly move my camera back to base JUST to charge it up. Modern WAY TO GO to take photographs, huh? Yes, I do have to buy another battery dreckly. The Q2M LCD reported that it was just a single blob of battery off max. No, I haven't fully commissioned this battery yet but all the same that's ...well, fair, not brilliant but fair. What I should've done is top up the battery during the drive home...

Put the one-blob-depleted (according to the Q2M LCD readout) battery into the Leica charger... no 80% beacon, so less than 80% for sure. Put the battery into the NITECORE... funky things happened (?conditioning/reset?) but I did see something like 9xx mAh (wasn't steady) and between 0mA or 10mA (very low) charging current while it was presumably thinking about it all. The previously referenced gizmo was back in the bottom of the toolbox. I will re-assess more fully next time but what I really wanted was to recharge the battery and make some really good coffee (mandatory). 

My takeaway thought (to be confirmed at next discharge/charge iteration) is that, of the two ways the NITECORE could assess or give any prognostication of anticipated or actual charge available, it seems more likely that it is a load dependent analysis (?on board the battery itself or possibly within the NITECORE circuitry?) rather than a stored register of any total amount of measured actual current flow delivered during its own charging interval (in this case less than 10secs). The Leica battery box is thoughtfully stamped < - D T + >.  Now, T might be temperature, D might be duration but would that all be in english or german or chinese?

>> When you plug in a full battery that number will stay zero as the charger won't try to charge a fully charged battery.
Not exactly... it may not be that simple. 'full/fully charged' by whose terms or definition (80%/100%)? 'stay zero' true value or buffer overflow error? Yes, I believe that the NITECORE is unlikely to try to 'overcharge' or otherwise 'cook the battery'.

 

Thank you. If they are interested then they are likely to already know of them. If they are not then their apparent market ignorance won't matter a jot in this case. My impromptu investigation's findings, time and thoughts are written up here because I wanted to and in case it helps other users. It was the sort of thing I wanted to find a time ago while still in 'decision mode'. Also just in case some Leica R&D manager needed a timely heads-up and general boot in the right direction ...as it were. 🙂 

My inclination is that it amounts to politics and finance. Do Leica want to snub NITECORE's existing 3rd party support product development by manufacturing one of their own design - albeit at a (probable) price point some three times higher? Do Leica want to fund the development of such awkward DC/DC converting tech (that headroom leading to a charge available above 80% is not so easily achieved in a mobile/travel product using 12vDC or USB). Oh and for just two people (in the forum)? Mmmm YMMV

>> new battery is not fully operational yet
Yes, thank you, I am aware how to commission batteries - see further above. 

Apropos and on-thread (tech spec) ...none of this would be moot if Leica R&D had originally manufactured an out-and-about in-the-field mobile charger supplied with or for the Q2M. Ball is in your court Leica R&D ...I think the term is "boo yah"😎

 

Thanks once again Piran - interesting reading above. In the end, as long as the battery does not get compromised, and causes all sort of issues, I am ok if the 80-85% is the best it can be done by Nitecore due to proprietary/ engineering/ (blank - insert reason) constraints ... and maybe roo safety related. I use rechargeable batteries while camping/backpacking, so I sm happy to have charging options on the go, and in Oregon, sometimes getting full sun is an issue - not just rain or clouds😀

looking forward for more findings....

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[piran]

11 hours ago, nwphil said:

looking forward for more findings....

Those < - D T + > markings appear to be in english (not german or chinese).

The 'T' contact terminal is used by a thermistor (a variable voltage temperature sensing resistor) element within the battery itself. Presumably for use by whaever charger utilised, though it may be used by the camera in some way. Hence the marketing bumf: "Constant monitoring of relevant battery data guarantees safe and convenient operation." The NITECORE must use this for its assessment of the operating temperature being endured by the battery. Unless, of course, it uses the 'D' contact - see next.

The 'D' contact terminal is a (?serial?) data communications line - protocol and content unknown. Could be the 'C' residual charge percentile, genuine battery authorisation/certification, a data link back to China via the WLAN connectivity of the Q2M (just checking for 'eyes open') or an internal degradation characteristic or parameter associated with enforced EOL. See also the unsubstantiated Leica marketing bumf: "Constant monitoring of relevant battery data guarantees safe and convenient operation."

TBC ...the NITECORE readout probably is a result of the processing of the D line and not any amount of charge by its own making. Otherwise how else could the mAh be displayed when newly inserting a partially charged battery. It sides with my allegation that the 0mAh shown, putting in a newly Leica charged (100%), being deliberate or a programmed buffer overflow error. It can't show more than its 80% NITECORE charge being overtopped by that from Leica (finding this awkward to put simply but exactly). IOW NITECORE's '100%' only amounts to being 80% according to Leica... ;-/ geez

Leica R&D ...make something that does the job in-the-field!

[Stephen.s1]

If Leica can furnish a dual voltage (mains / 12V) charger for my M 10, they surely can do the same for Q cells.

 

[piran]

1 hour ago, Stephen.s1 said:

If Leica can furnish a dual voltage (mains / 12V) charger for my M 10, they surely can do the same for Q cells.

 

I agree with you entirely. That's why I said earlier that it wasn't 'rocket science' - the wheel had already been invented  (to mix metaphors). Notice too that that your M10's Leica sourced 12v-capable charger is marketed against a similar but different product by NITECORE.

Hence my current beef with the apparently deliberate Q2M spec deficiency. IOW to reduce the Q2M's competitiveness with the M10 range? Politics? For example in a different but still German industry this is what Porsche have been known do (?still?) with their wonderful Cayman/Boxster sports cars so as to favour their much more profitable 911 markets. 

I have a Q too (original series) but it uses a different battery. Once again I was obliged to use an aftermarket charger (not a NITECORE back then) for occasional in-the-field use. It's like déjà vu all over again:-| Yes, the Q is probably now a done deal but the Q2M is a new product now launched as already deficient:-/ BTW it's not just the Q2/Q2M range but also the SL stuff... Premium current product ranges for which Leica choose to offer no direct current source [pun]. Heads up Leica R&D.

Edited December 8, 2020 by piran
typos/eyesight :-|

[piran]

14 hours ago, nwphil said:

I use rechargeable batteries while camping/backpacking, so I sm happy to have charging options on the go, and in Oregon, sometimes getting full sun is an issue - not just rain or clouds😀

 

A flexible solar charging panel covering the skyward part of your haversack is a possibility ...to workaround Leica's inexplicable tech spec deficiency. I have mobility issues and haven't researched solar at all but this looks adequate. Just as long you don't mind looking a bit odd - check the lowermost thumbnail. Apparently 2.4A (up to 3A in full sun) is available (NITECORE needs 2A-ish).

[nwphil]

10 minutes ago, piran said:

A flexible solar charging panel covering the skyward part of your haversack is a possibility ...to workaround Leica's inexplicable tech spec deficiency. I have mobility issues and haven't researched solar at all but this looks adequate. Just as long you don't mind looking a bit odd - check the lowermost thumbnail. Apparently 2.4A (up to 3A in full sun) is available (NITECORE needs 2A-ish).

thanks, I tried the solar panel thing years ago, and I am sure the technology improved since ....2012? or so....yeah that long ago. Anker is a good brand to me - been very happy with their products.

I had a Goal Zero panel, carried attached to by backpack, and ended not performing that well.

The Anker powerpacks I have, charge the garmin gps, headlamp, camp light, and tabet with no issues and still more than enough juice left for the phone if needed - talking about 3-5 day outings

[piran]

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4 minutes ago, nwphil said:

thanks, I tried the solar panel thing years ago, and I am sure the technology improved since ....2012? or so....yeah that long ago. Anker is a good brand to me - been very happy with their products.

I had a Goal Zero panel, carried attached to by backpack, and ended not performing that well.

The Anker powerpacks I have, charge the garmin gps, headlamp, camp light, and tabet with no issues and still more than enough juice left for the phone if needed - talking about 3-5 day outings

That Anker is listed as being 'first in stock' on Amazon back in July 2015 . Had one dud Anker 20,000mAh powerbank. It only held charge for a fortnight offline. I I didn't find out until after the Return-By date so I gave it to the recycle centre. Otherwise Anker have been OK here. Agree though, too many chains to go wrong and with accumulative inefficiencies!? I stay close to my car and can't then go wrong. In addition to the car's 12v DC system it has a comparatively massive emergency 'powerbank' thing. it'll restart the car so the Leica battery will always be 'sorted' ...despite Leica's perplexing no-mobile-tech charger policy. 

IAC thought the idea of backpacking outback was to get away from it all ...so why worry 'bout the phone battery 🤠

[nwphil]

35 minutes ago, piran said:

That Anker is listed as being 'first in stock' on Amazon back in July 2015 . Had one dud Anker 20,000mAh powerbank. It only held charge for a fortnight offline. I I didn't find out until after the Return-By date so I gave it to the recycle centre. Otherwise Anker have been OK here. Agree though, too many chains to go wrong and with accumulative inefficiencies!? I stay close to my car and can't then go wrong. In addition to the car's 12v DC system it has a comparatively massive emergency 'powerbank' thing. it'll restart the car so the Leica battery will always be 'sorted' ...despite Leica's perplexing no-mobile-tech charger policy. 

IAC thought the idea of backpacking outback was to get away from it all ...so why worry 'bout the phone battery 🤠

ah-ah, phone gets turned off the moment I step out of the car for those outings. Useless to carry in most instances as I will have no service - unless i climb high enough, then I might get pinged. I do have some apps that work without network - pdf maps, nightsky identifiers and also for animal tracks or plants/flowers.

Do have portable beacon, but the phone might be of use in an emergency too - if can get signal ofcourse. Gets pretty annoying during day hikes getting constant notifications of service as one gets signal bounce.

I read often that many Leica shooters don't deplete a battery in a day of shooting, likely leisure  walking  here and there. Ofcourse I myself tend to be more selective of intent, and not just snap-happy as I would be with other cameras - I am aware of that. So yeah, 300 shots might be more than enough, but what about next day? if I had  a Q2, I would be very tempted to carry it for backpacking....but those batteries are not cheap, and as you know cold will affect their performance.

10 days ago or so, we ventured into the state's east highlands - know locally as high desert, or simply eastern Oregon/dry side. was a bit cold, going down to the lower 20's or high teens at night (Fahrenheit). Left the camera in the car without battery, and in the morning, placed the warmed up battery inside (stayed inside my sleeping bag). Within minutes, the battery showed depleted, after initial 80% or so. Turns out the camera itself was really cold ( was wearing liners). Had to let it warm up inside the car, under the sunlight, (battery went into my jackets' pocket) and then was back to normal.

To be said that I previously carried a Canon 1Dx or the Olympus EM1mk2  into similar if not colder conditions, and the camera itself did not behave that way.

So, battery recharging it's an issue that I always have to overcome/solve quite often, and impacts my decision of what to carry as camera gear in my outings

Edited December 8, 2020 by nwphil

[piran]

Interesting story ...one perhaps Leica R&D should write up on their planning boards and reflect on how their decision predicate how it affects their customers and allows them to live their lives with their favourite Leica cameras.

In my more agile days I carried ALL DAY a Canon EOS 1Ds mark III fitted with my favourite glass (70-200 f2.8 L) and other stuff. Spent most of the day with that lot lifted to my face and shooting maybe 1200 to 1500 full size RAW exposures (single shots not motordrive) ...on a SINGLE charge (never actually depleted it on a live shoot and I only ever had one battery for that kit). A single media too despite the capability to run a pair of media. Mmmm How times change, eh? YMMV 

Battery requirements, associated 'charging' methodology, are almost hidden but oh-so-mandatory requirements whose planning should be up there with all the other more fashionable favourite stuff (IQ primes mm f et al). 

Leica please supply a mobile charger.

Edited December 8, 2020 by piran
typos/eyesight :-| ...added single shots not motordrive

[marchyman]

20 hours ago, piran said:

The 'prognostication' is (at best) an assessment by NITECORE of the amount of charge available for use if the charging were to be terminated at that point.

I do not believe that is correct.  It is an assessment of the amount of charge that has been added.  It does not include any residual charge in the battery,  It will only relate to the available charge if the battery was empty when placed on the charger.

[piran]

2 hours ago, marchyman said:

I do not believe that is correct.  It is an assessment of the amount of charge that has been added.  It does not include any residual charge in the battery,  It will only relate to the available charge if the battery was empty when placed on the charger.

I'll try to check on that during next recharge. Haven't yet worked out whether the battery's 'D' terminal *SENDS* a data assessment of likely capacity *TO* the NITECORE or whether the latter uses it to *PROBE* parameters within the battery in order for the NITECORE to come up with its displayed readings. Might be irrelevant either way. The 0mAh available charge capacity displayed may also be an anomaly arising from politics or programming error (buffer overflow). All predicated on differing judgments as to what each organisation sees as being apparently '100%' 'charged'?

Unhelpfully the term 'charge' has multiple meanings or senses. What would be the point of the NITECORE showing how much charge it managed to get stored during a given charging session? We need to know what available charge capacity is likely (as a whole). 

It's good to show the level of charging current flow. However, available charge capacity is surely an overall amount that includes any residual partial charge. An energy store is just 'one' collection of energy.

Will observe more closely on the next charging cycle - perpetrated on me as being necessarily done back at base/home attached to the mains - as enforced by Leica's unwillingness to augment its technical specifications to include this missing Leica mobile charger technology.

[ full or full-ish battery ]
Took the battery out of a cold offline camera, put it into the NITECORE. It showed what I optimistically described before as being 'funky' or perhaps 'conditioning'. Now showing: 6.4v 42c 'Good' with the bottom blob flashing along with 0mA and 0mAh !? 😬 Took it out and re-inserted it several times but the NITECORE display was still showing what appeared to be largely nonsense ...unless it really was 'conditioning' the battery by bringing it back down to NITECORE's idea of 100% (ie Leica's 80% from Leica's idea of 100%). Disconcerting. Took the battery out of the NITECORE JIC. Tomorrow I'll shoot some home videos, I've not tried any up to now, that'll use up some juice more usefully.

[piran]

[ grey zone ]
This particular post does not describe a proper recharge. It is an observation of the funky symptoms exhibited by the NITECORE when fitted with a battery whose charge in the 'grey zone ...approximately 80%-85% (relative to the Leica charger's 100%).

I will *NOT* be fitting a Leica battery in an elevated state of charge (80%-85% or perhaps even more) into the NITECORE ever again. Its design clearly does not cope and displays nonsensical readings. The gizmo shows that, at least, the NITECORE is not attempting to recharge/overcharge any further.

What the NITECORE design 'ought' to be doing is flashing everything on the display in time-honoured fashion to emphasize an out-of-tolerance or over-range condition. It does not do this simple but universally understood thing. Instead the NITECORE design chooses to show utter nonsense. At best this is confusing, at worst stuff 'may' be going wrong ...not what you'd want with a li-ion battery.

Slightly depleted the battery overnight ready for this experiment. The Leica charger earlier showed an 80% beacon and was attempting to continue to fully charge.

Battery is now in the 'grey zone'... after allowing it to settle down I fitted it into the NITECORE.
The latter immediately showed an apparently false start (aka 'funky' or alternatively just utter nonsense):-
1 flashing blob 6.5v 43C 0mA 0mAh (no current drawn from the computer USB port).

After refitting the battery several times (more false starts and nonsense) the NITECORE finally showed some sensible readings:-
3 full blobs & a fourth flashing blob, 21C, 8.0v, 7mAh, 968mAh (some 2.25A drawn from the computer USB port).

About 10sec later the NITECORE declared 'End':-
5 steady blobs, 8.4v, 21C, 7mAh (no mA shown) (no current drawn from the computer USB port)

@marchyman The NITECORE, at various points of the charging sequence, does seem to display only what it just put in (here ?7mAh? for that charging session) but, at other points of the charging sequence, seems to display the overall expected or estimated charge capacity ...go figure!? I'm really not finding consistency:-/

About 3mins later I refitted the battery into the NITECORE (to find it displaying its sadly now usual nonsense):-
3 full blobs & a fourth flashing blob, 44C, 8.0v, 0mA, 0mAH (no current drawn from the computer USB port) 

I also experimented with a (known good and fully charged) powerbank to feed the NITECORE (battery was still in the grey zone). Although the powerbank has a 3000mAh spec its output rating is of only 1A. As expected the gizmo reported some 2.25A being (attempted to be) drawn by the NITECORE until the powerbank's protective limiting quickly shut it all down. It's just physics, the NITECORE electronics need (a little OVER) 2A to function. Not a sin. So I need to get a chunkier powerbank if I want this sort of facility.

The battery was put into the Leica charger which showed an anticipated steady orange 80% beacon and flashing green CHARGE beacon. I will let it charge to the max. Note that this does not count towards a full discharge/charge for a new battery commissioning.

[ conclusions ]
1) Avoid putting your Leica battery (charged to the Leica regime of 80% or higher) into the NITECORE. 
2) A 2A+ capable current source is a real requirement for the mobile/travel NITECORE charger.
3) Leica R&D please now supply a proper Leica mobile charger so that us Leica customers can use our favoured cameras more appropriately in-the-field without having to run back to base/home to recharge or be obliged to use a 3rd party mobile charger (with strange operating characteristics and a lower than maximum recharge capability) 🙄

[nwphil]

Thanks Robert for your effort and sharing the findings

 - I would never use an usb charger at home when I have the corded version, unless there was an urgent need to get both charged at same time. It's winter, so my outdoorsy activities are a bit more limited, and then my wife still tending to a foot/ankle runner injury, so only flat terrain and short jolts are allowed. That means the need for the usb charger is on hold, but this also means it's time to bug Leica - I did using the Leica Fotos app, and they were very responsive.

First  you get the automated notification, but a real person emails you very soon (local times in consideration ofcourse). I am going to forward them this thread as a link, if you do not object to it. Time to place some pressure in -  they advertise the Leica Q series as go-everywhere take it with you all the time type of camera, so it's only 'fair' to make ask them to step-up to those words....you an usb charger and (cherry on-top, extra wiped cream with sprinkles) proper certified power bank (doubt about this last a lot)

[piran]

Agreed. Go right ahead. To be fair it's still a go-everywhere camera as promised ...just got to buy a bundle of spare battery packs to fuel the dream. Leica R&D should get on and address this black hole in their tech spec though. Leaving it up to a 3rd party to not-quite-get-it-right is a little sloppy. YMMV

[nwphil]

2 minutes ago, piran said:

Agreed. Go right ahead. To be fair it's still a go-everywhere camera as promised ...just got to buy a bundle of spare battery packs to fuel the dream. Leica R&D should get on and address this black hole in their tech spec though. Leaving it up to a 3rd party to not-quite-get-it-right is a little sloppy. YMMV

thanks - indeed, fair enough. The notion of going everywhere has a different meaning for me 😁. I got two for now and it should be enough till late spring (I always like to of a backup of the backup)

After all they have 2 Q's now with same battery, but they likely to say that an extra battery is way safer, more reliable and less heavy than a gizmo charger and powerpack (and provides them more money too)

[piran]

>> After all they have 2 Q's now with same battery...
Not forgetting the premium SL ...takes the same battery. as the Q2 & Q2M 
Don't understand the reason for the black hole. Politics:-/

[nwphil]

2 minutes ago, piran said:

>> After all they have 2 Q's now with same battery...
Not forgetting the premium SL ...takes the same battery. as the Q2 & Q2M 
Don't understand the reason for the black hole. Politics:-/

ah - not aware of a 3rd one. 

If not asking too much, could you just explain the back hole thing - more of a summary😁, yes, I read the previous posts, but since I will be telling Leica to look here, might as well educate myself along, if that's ok with you.

Thanks

[piran]

Black hole - inescapable big hole in the fabric of the universe.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica Q

[nwphil]

43 minutes ago, piran said:

Black hole - inescapable big hole in the fabric of the universe.

ROTFLMAO - yeah, prove it - better yet show me a picture of it (ps: better not use the Q2M)

Edited December 9, 2020 by nwphil

[piran]

13 minutes ago, nwphil said:

ROTFLMAO - yeah, prove it - better yet show me a picture of it...

Just did ...didn't you see it? 👀