Early IIIf RD Canada

[tranquilo67]

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Hi,

I've just got my first ELC Leica (serial number 610205).

According to the usual lists it belongs to the first Canada batch (the 205th sample), and, according to those lists it should be Black Dial but it's a Red Dial.

I've done a research, and it seems that all cameras from that batch later than mine are RD, and the last 'Ive found before mine (610100) is Black Dial. It's generally accepted that the first Red Dial is the 615001, but my understanding is that it can be true for Wetzlar, but not for ELC, so our guess (mine and Jerzy's) is that that first Canada batch could be made of several groups and, when they received the Red Dial sets to be assembled, they could have reused some of the remaining serial numbers for the new model.

So it would place the first RD somewhere between 610101 and 610205.

Anyway, to make the long story short, here you have the last member of the family. One of the firsts IIIf Red Dial, and the earliest that have surfaced so far (according to my research). Of course, anyone with a 610xxx specially before mine would be helpful for narrowing the start of the RD in Canada.

As always, every comment is welcome. Take care,

Augusto

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[luigi bertolotti]

thanks ! Worth noting that also the shutter has the "new" scale .. I don't remember if this is a straight-fixed combination (Red Dial = new times)

[tranquilo67]

2 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

thanks ! Worth noting that also the shutter has the "new" scale .. I don't remember if this is a straight-fixed combination (Red Dial = new times)

Hi Luigi,

As per my understanding, both red scale with faster flash sync and new speed scale, were together due to the improved shutter mechanism.

Best wishes,

Augusto

[ironringer]

It may be my laptop screen, but that looks like a black dial scale (flash advance numbers) to me ...

[pedaes]

7 hours ago, ironringer said:

It may be my laptop screen, but that looks like a black dial scale (flash advance numbers) to me ...

I thought that, but looked at mine at that angle and colour does not show well.

[tranquilo67]

9 hours ago, ironringer said:

It may be my laptop screen, but that looks like a black dial scale (flash advance numbers) to me ...

You have made me doubt!! 😄

But yes, I've double checked and it is ( and yes, I need to clean it!!)

Best wishes,

Augusto

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[willeica]

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On 10/30/2020 at 3:13 PM, tranquilo67 said:

Hi,

I've just got my first ELC Leica (serial number 610205).

According to the usual lists it belongs to the first Canada batch (the 205th sample), and, according to those lists it should be Black Dial but it's a Red Dial.

I've done a research, and it seems that all cameras from that batch later than mine are RD, and the last 'Ive found before mine (610100) is Black Dial. It's generally accepted that the first Red Dial is the 615001, but my understanding is that it can be true for Wetzlar, but not for ELC, so our guess (mine and Jerzy's) is that that first Canada batch could be made of several groups and, when they received the Red Dial sets to be assembled, they could have reused some of the remaining serial numbers for the new model.

So it would place the first RD somewhere between 610101 and 610205.

Anyway, to make the long story short, here you have the last member of the family. One of the firsts IIIf Red Dial, and the earliest that have surfaced so far (according to my research). Of course, anyone with a 610xxx specially before mine would be helpful for narrowing the start of the RD in Canada.

As always, every comment is welcome. Take care,

Augusto

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

Nice acquisition, Augusto. Those serial number ranges and parts bins at Leitz/Leica were always well used. We usually refer to 'earliest' as being the one with the lowest serial number. However, there is another way of measuring 'earliest' and that is by reference to the first delivery date. Has it been possible to determine the earliest dates for IIIf RDs delivered from Wetzlar and ELC?

On the colour of the dial, some of my Red Dial cameras look like they have Black Dials at first glance. Dirt, grime and age can cause this, but when held up to the right light or cleaned a bit of red usually shows up. The main indicator is not, of course, the apparent colour of the dial, but rather the numbers on shutter dial which will read 25-50-75 etc on a Red Dial camera. The serial number can also help , but you have bought one from the cusp of the change from Black Dial to Red Dial.

William

 

[tranquilo67]

24 minutes ago, willeica said:

Nice acquisition, Augusto. Those serial number ranges and parts bins at Leitz/Leica were always well used. We usually refer to 'earliest' as being the one with the lowest serial number. However, there is another way of measuring 'earliest' and that is by reference to the first delivery date. Has it been possible to determine the earliest dates for IIIf RDs delivered from Wetzlar and ELC?

On the colour of the dial, some of my Red Dial cameras look like they have Black Dials at first glance. Dirt, grime and age can cause this, but when held up to the right light or cleaned a bit of red usually shows up. The main indicator is not, of course, the apparent colour of the dial, but rather the numbers on shutter dial which will read 25-50-75 etc on a Red Dial camera. The serial number can also help , but you have bought one from the cusp of the change from Black Dial to Red Dial.

William

 

Thank you William!!

I fully agree with you (as usually ). The lower serial number doesn't necessarily mean that it's chronologically earlier. I haven't written to Leica for information yet, but I don't know if they will have any information at all in their records about the ELC units. Hopefully they will have some about early samples. I don't even know if the sets to be assembled in Canada had the serial number already engraved, or that task was deferred to ELC (or even it was partially done in Wetzlar). It's interesting to see that the last number "5" seems a bit bold compared with some of the rest.

Anyway, it's interesting to see the little information available for ELC and its production.

As many of you know, I love these oddities in terms of the serial numbers. They break a little bit the usual lists (as well as people's mind ).

Best wishes,

Augusto

PS: I'll let you know about the answer from Leica.

[willeica]

This one from the upcoming Leitz Auction is fascinating. The serial number might indicate a IIIf Black Dial, but the camera is clearly a Red Dial. Perhaps a special order conversion?

93. Leica IIIf Red Dial

 

 

 

PreviousNex

Near mint Leica IIIf body, self-timer and ASA/Weston film index, with chrome Summar 2/5cm no.468902 (light haze) and rare chrome embossed front cap, exposure guide leaflet, OKARO orange filter for the rangefinder, VIOOH finder no.71941, two film spools with their aluminium containers and red maker's box (2 different serial numbers)

 Sale No 38966

 Condition A/B

 Serial No. 599218

 Year 1951

 

William 

 

 

[tranquilo67]

28 minutes ago, willeica said:

This one from the upcoming Leitz Auction is fascinating. The serial number might indicate a IIIf Black Dial, but the camera is clearly a Red Dial. Perhaps a special order conversion?

93. Leica IIIf Red Dial

 

 

 

PreviousNex

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Near mint Leica IIIf body, self-timer and ASA/Weston film index, with chrome Summar 2/5cm no.468902 (light haze) and rare chrome embossed front cap, exposure guide leaflet, OKARO orange filter for the rangefinder, VIOOH finder no.71941, two film spools with their aluminium containers and red maker's box (2 different serial numbers)

 Sale No 38966

 Condition A/B

 Serial No. 599218

 Year 1951

 

William 

 

 

That's something weird indeed. Not sure if it's original or upgraded.

In parallel, someone has shown in a Facebook group (My Leica Historica) the number 610150 and it's black dial as well as the 610200 and it's already red. He has also mentioned (not shown) the 610153 as black dial as well as 610190 as Red Dial so it seems the change could have taken place between 610154 and 610190!!!! My guess was more about the number 200 but it seems earlier.

Augusto

[Sully]

 

I have a 1955, 111F, #773808, ...ELC, BD, DA, (shutter progression 1/25, 50, 77...).  There seems to be 192

other ELC, 111Fs made after this camera.  The Leica Wiki gives #774000 as the last ELC, 111F serial number.

Ciao,  Sully

[FPangrazi]

On 31/10/2020 at 22:35, tranquilo67 said:

È davvero qualcosa di strano. Non sono sicuro che sia originale o aggiornato.

Parallelamente, qualcuno ha mostrato in un gruppo Facebook (My Leica Historica) il numero 610150 e il suo quadrante nero così come il 610200 ed è già rosso. Ha anche menzionato (non mostrato) il 610153 come quadrante nero e 610190 come quadrante rosso, quindi sembra che il cambiamento possa aver avuto luogo tra 610154 e 610190 !!!! La mia ipotesi era più sul numero 200 ma sembra prima.

Augusto

😞

 

[tranquilo67]

22 hours ago, FPangrazi said:

😞

 

Why are you sad, Fabrizio?

I didn't want to mention any names without permission but, of course, any contribution here is welcome!!!