LocalHero1953 Posted November 8, 2020 Share #321 Posted November 8, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) I believe you are using the word 'aesthetic' in the sense that the differences you see between 24Mp and 40Mp can be described as having an artistic quality - better or worse. I don't see it that way. I can see differences between images from different sensors, cameras etc, but they are simply factual/practical. Any question of quality (meaning artistically better or worse) derives from the photographer, the subject and the treatment. IMO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 8, 2020 Posted November 8, 2020 Hi LocalHero1953, Take a look here 24meg verses 40meg aesthetic. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pgk Posted November 8, 2020 Share #322 Posted November 8, 2020 37 minutes ago, Tom1234 said: Sorry, but since Photoshop took over photography, pictures mostly look mechanical due to a fixed position pixel matrix and mathematically perfect photoshop modifications. It is obvious that the photo is modified and not particularly historic. What absolute and utter rubbish! I have sold fine art photographic prints shot on both film and digital. Even the knowledgable (photographers and/or photograph print buyers) cannot tell which process was used (unless I suppose it is obvious and intended; mine weren't). Assertions like this are generalisations which are not evidence based - misinformation if you want - and there is already enough of that about. I'm sorry to be harsh, but perpetuating this myth is no longer acceptable, because it may have been fair to say this many years ago but it is now firmly a myth. Film and digital can look different, but they can also look identical. There is no 'magic' about film. And FWIW I have made 'better' prints from film by digitising the film image, adjusting it in Photoshop and having it digitally printed, than by printing the same images the old, conventional way. You need to open your mind and actually look at some prints. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1234 Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share #323 Posted November 8, 2020 10 minutes ago, Steven said: Yes there is a difference beyond the sensors themselves. I think the colour science difference, which to my eye exists but very lightly, can be overcome in LR. You can easily make the R look like the P and vice versa. The sharpness, or detail topic which we've discussed extensively here is a non issue. It arguably does exist, but again, it can be overcome easily, whether during the shoot or after. I would consider a difference between the two cameras, but not so much an aesthetical difference anymore. Overall, I think that the extra MP means extra versatility, and that's a positive things. You can achieve more "looks", or continue doing what you like. It's also good when you occasionally need to shoot something from closed than 70cm... you can crop in now... Aesthetically I do notice on difference that I believe comes from the new MP count, which I had not anticipated although someone mentioned it before here. Maybe it was Jeff. The textures.... Its like a whole new world. Textures look so much richer now. I don't know how to describe it with words, but a textured wall, a leather table, etc... you can almost feel it when you look at it now. Textures look so beautiful on the R and ive been enjoying this a lot. I know you will straight away ask me about skins ! No, I don't see all the pores of the few people I shot so far, but that's probably because of the way I shoot as well. Older, softer lenses. Run and gun, so no perfect light on the faces. I'm not a studio shooter, there's a lot of motion in my photography. So I think in the end you can make the R whatever you want it to be in the end. Everything new that comes with it seems to be extra benefits. No sacrifices. Havent made my decision wether or not ill keep it. The Leica store gave it to me on Friday. They told me I had till Tuesday to test it out. I left them my M10P as deposit, and If I decide to keep the R ill have to add 2,5K. Im getting closer and closer to a decision..... I think I am starting to have an opinion on wether it is worth it or not..... I really like your "Textures" statement. Years ago I read a book that went on-&-on about textures in architecture, they said it mattered, and it does. Also, I remember liking some plastics, that somehow had different texture from other plastics, that looked smooth but cheap. The ability to capture more texture is a new aesthetic, this is how I use the word. For those of us trained in traditional painter's art techniques (no I am not a painter but I have studied it) you are capturing a new aesthetic with the M10-R. Many thanks for your extensive and sacrificial research. I am looking forward to hearing what your choice is between the two bodies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1234 Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share #324 Posted November 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, Steven said: Someone earlier in the thread said that using photoshop too much on Leica cameras is denying the heritage of 90 years of photography or whatever. Total nonsense ! Everyone do what they want with their Leica. Leicas are notorious for reportage style photography, ok! But its doesn't mean I cannot do fashion or photoshop work with it ! This is just not ok to say. I only argue that there is such a thing as reportage historic photography… never against other aesthetics that include much imagination as these are the lifeblood of the arts. Your statement is a great play on words that recognizes the complexity of the various aesthetics "Some have perfect aligned compositions, some are more imperfect, and it makes them perfect." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1234 Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share #325 Posted November 8, 2020 26 minutes ago, Steven said: The textures.... Its like a whole new world. Textures look so much richer now. I don't know how to describe it with words, but a textured wall, a leather table, etc... you can almost feel it when you look at it now. Textures look so beautiful on the R and ive been enjoying this a lot. I know you will straight away ask me about skins ! No, I don't see all the pores of the few people I shot so far, but that's probably because of the way I shoot as well. Older, softer lenses. Run and gun, so no perfect light on the faces. I'm not a studio shooter, there's a lot of motion in my photography. So I think in the end you can make the R whatever you want it to be in the end. Everything new that comes with it seems to be extra benefits. No sacrifices. Havent made my decision wether or not ill keep it. The Leica store gave it to me on Friday. They told me I had till Tuesday to test it out. I left them my M10P as deposit, and If I decide to keep the R ill have to add 2,5K. Im getting closer and closer to a decision..... I think I am starting to have an opinion on wether it is worth it or not..... I wonder if the M11 will be more of the same, more megs? That is more resolution. Panasonic S5 has a ultra high resolution mode 96meg, wonder if Leica will do that? Reviews with pictures to show the differences…. and yes the increased texture you comment on shows. Ultimately everyone will probably want this since there is a definable difference between the different meg of capture, that of texture. https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64339670 https://petapixel.com/2020/09/21/you-can-shoot-96mp-pixel-shift-astro-photos-with-the-panasonic-lumix-s5/ https://www.cameralabs.com/panasonic-lumix-s5-review/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1234 Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share #326 Posted November 8, 2020 15 minutes ago, Steven said: Leica does that on the sl2 with a 186Mp mode. From my understanding the camera needs to have 5 axis ibis to shift pixels. i doubt the m11 would have ibis. 1) So How is the Leica 186Mp mode of the SL2? As much texture as the M10-R? 2) If you have the SL2 with even greater resolution why consider the m10-R? Is the SL2 really so different that the M10-R is worth getting also? I am not being critica,l I realize there maybe good reasons to own both, even if some people do not value those reasons as you do. I did not see pictures as sharp-&-texture-filled as those in the S5 links I gave above on Instagram, but Instagram is apparently only maybe 20k max resolution? Glad they are honest enough to tell you the file size of their pictures when you hover the cursor over those pictures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted November 8, 2020 Share #327 Posted November 8, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) Various discussions elsewhere. For instance.. 1. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/310699-leica-sl2-firmware-20-187-mp-multishot-mode/ 2. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/313778-anyone-using-sl2-and-m10r-sensor-differences-evident/ As far as textures, once again there are lots of ways to control picture rendering, at every stage of the workflow... subject matter/lighting, lens choice, PP actions (the sliders in LR go BOTH directions... including separate controls for texture, clarity, sharpness, grain, contrast, etc), ink and paper choice, display lighting, an so on. I can easily emphasize or deemphasize textures on pictures derived from any of my cameras, including the SL2. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 9, 2020 Share #328 Posted November 9, 2020 13 hours ago, Tom1234 said: Sorry, but since Photoshop took over photography, pictures mostly look mechanical due to a fixed position pixel matrix and mathematically perfect photoshop modifications. It is obvious that the photo is modified and not particularly historic. That is okay for some photographers, but don't deny it. Sorry, I find that complete rubbish. Sure, digital images look different from film images, but that is due to the higher precision of the process. In my eyes it is an improvement. It gives me more versatility to achieve the "aesthetic" I strive for. You still labour under the misapprehension that creating a photograph is modifying it. All photographs in the world are modified, be it in the darkroom, the camera or photoshop (etc.) Without processing they could not exist. Whether you like an image or not is a subjective call which has nothing to do with the process used. I fail to see the meaning of the word "historic" in this context. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis Posted November 9, 2020 Share #329 Posted November 9, 2020 14 hours ago, Steven said: I shoot film I shoot digital I shoot movies, on iPhones, or Sony mirrorless, and on Arri cine cameras. I shoot nudes, I shoot street, I shoot environmental portraiture, I shoot family, I shoot fashion, I shoot on a tripod, I shoot handheld. Sometimes I edit, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I put grain dust and scratches, sometimes I don't. Some of my photos look sharp, some look soft, some look modern, some look vintage. Some have perfect aligned compositions, some are more imperfect, and it makes them perfect. 🤔 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustafasoleiman Posted November 9, 2020 Share #330 Posted November 9, 2020 If just by looking, two different people come up with different opinions of reality, using a tool like a camera will only reinforce each opinion. AdiM 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1234 Posted November 9, 2020 Author Share #331 Posted November 9, 2020 Maybe my last post on this thread… it is dead... Officially waiting on M11 - Hoping for: 90meg without ruining the color saturation. More simplification and assignable buttons. Multiple visual aesthetics in firmware & selectable as saves (not just dmg and jpg). Maybe a 2k TV quality video mode but don't worry about 4k and 8k? M11 video could be like super 8 or 16mm video quality if it has any video. Two memory cards. SL5 - Hoping for: Smaller SL series camera based on Panasonic S5 + Leica tweaks for ease of use especially manual focus ease of use and as always more simplification. The SL5 Should be the indy filmmakers dream camera, if not then I will buy a Nikon Z6 II or Z7 II but I hope instead the SL5 will handle also Nikon F mount manual focus lenses which I own. Two memory cards. Complementary (kinda) Close: Steve I will miss you… you are the hardest worker on the Forum. Thanks to many others who have contributed. Also, I have identified the trolls and assigned them to purgatory where I will not see them, good riddance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted November 9, 2020 Share #332 Posted November 9, 2020 Color saturation (and other color rendering), as well as “multiple visual aesthetics”, can be established by the user in a matter of minutes and saved as color profiles, presets and/or default import settings. No need to reinvent photography or the M system. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LBJ2 Posted November 9, 2020 Share #333 Posted November 9, 2020 50 minutes ago, Tom1234 said: Maybe my last post on this thread… it is dead... Officially waiting on M11 - Hoping for: 90meg without ruining the color saturation. More simplification and assignable buttons. Multiple visual aesthetics in firmware & selectable as saves (not just dmg and jpg). Maybe a 2k TV quality video mode but don't worry about 4k and 8k? M11 video could be like super 8 or 16mm video quality if it has any video. Two memory cards. SL5 - Hoping for: Smaller SL series camera based on Panasonic S5 + Leica tweaks for ease of use especially manual focus ease of use and as always more simplification. The SL5 Should be the indy filmmakers dream camera, if not then I will buy a Nikon Z6 II or Z7 II but I hope instead the SL5 will handle also Nikon F mount manual focus lenses which I own. Two memory cards. Complementary (kinda) Close: Steve I will miss you… you are the hardest worker on the Forum. Thanks to many others who have contributed. Also, I have identified the trolls and assigned them to purgatory where I will not see them, good riddance. It's been an interesting thread! Always good to read different ideas, impressions and ultimately opinions. So many intriguing tools these days from almost all the major players. "Pick your poison" as they say and plenty to argue and debate about. Personally I am currently more than set with Leica/Sony--everything I need and want for the forseable future but if I'm not looking...I'm no longer breathing and always some new and exciting GAS announcement around every corner to include whatever the SL2-S turns out to be! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1234 Posted November 9, 2020 Author Share #334 Posted November 9, 2020 39 minutes ago, LBJ2 said: It's been an interesting thread! Always good to read different ideas, impressions and ultimately opinions. So many intriguing tools these days from almost all the major players. "Pick your poison" as they say and plenty to argue and debate about. Personally I am currently more than set with Leica/Sony--everything I need and want for the forseable future but if I'm not looking...I'm no longer breathing and always some new and exciting GAS announcement around every corner to include whatever the SL2-S turns out to be! Many thanks for your participation! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1234 Posted November 9, 2020 Author Share #335 Posted November 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Steven said: Not happening Not happening Not happening Not happening any time soon. We are about to get an SL2S with similar specs as the S5 but in the same body. that's not true but thanks for the kind words! I'll miss you too. Come visit us sometimes ! You are probably right Leica won't make a camera just for me. If I take what Americans call "The Grand Tour" which is to pass through Europe I will definitely "look you up" as they say in the USA. I do have plans for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted November 9, 2020 Share #336 Posted November 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Steven said: Any difference in aesthetics here ? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 😁 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1234 Posted November 9, 2020 Author Share #337 Posted November 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Steven said: Any difference in aesthetics here ? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 4 minutes ago, Steven said: Any difference in aesthetics here ? No difference. Both beautifully smooth. But I would like to see the complete files with all the data as downloads. I no longer trust forum pictures for important decisions and comparisons. And I might object that any woman that would expose herself this way might also be involved in some kind of trick. I am sure she has been paid a large dollar amount to be so revealing! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1234 Posted November 9, 2020 Author Share #338 Posted November 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, Steven said: 😂 Here is the full res jpeg. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1nqV3Ns7HYCDcu8XV0sOrDNItNTDa_T_u?usp=sharing 18 minutes ago, Steven said: The good old 12MP (A7S3) vs 40MP (M10R) test ! Except here I downsized the M10R image to the same resolution than the A7SIII. No one will ever be able to tell me which is which. Download also looks perfect. Only one picture, not two to compare, but if they look so similar then it does not matter. The downsize program probably affects the pixels and look. Ideally only the raw DMG would be compared to Sony's file whatever type. Yet if it is that easy to make both look the same then does the source camera matter? I might go buy a used Nikon… just joking. I have two concerns: One, that the 12meg Sony is so similar to 40meg Leica and must say I am heartbroken by this, I can only hope that a much more complex scene is needed to find differences or unmodified files straight out of the camera. Two, the girl… looks in a frazzle. I would be even more concerned but I am sure she is well paid. Question: So did you decide to keep the m10p 24meg? Can't go wrong with it I am thinking. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/314500-24meg-verses-40meg-aesthetic/?do=findComment&comment=4077113'>More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted November 9, 2020 Share #339 Posted November 9, 2020 24 minutes ago, Tom1234 said: I no longer trust forum pictures for important decisions and comparisons. Progress. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1234 Posted November 9, 2020 Author Share #340 Posted November 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, Steven said: You clicked too fast it was still uploading. you can go ahead now. The lower meg file is a little sharper when pixel peeping. Damn! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/314500-24meg-verses-40meg-aesthetic/?do=findComment&comment=4077140'>More sharing options...
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