5 YEARS 1 CAMERA - A Photographer's Story

[Kristian Dowling]

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On 10/26/2020 at 5:17 AM, BlackBarn said:

Wow! That’s a biggie of a statement.  ‘Most M buyers probably shouldn’t  buy it.........’ 

I’m not certain where your mind is on this one?  
 

My mind is very clear. For purchasers of Leica, the M for many years was the ONLY camera to buy, especially if they weren't interested in the R line. It's basically a default camera to buy. It also happens to be Leica's hero product and rightfully so given i's history, revolution in creating the 35mm format, and testimony from users who have created some of history's most significant images.

When I refer to M buyers, I am talking about the modern M buyer that now has many great Leica alternatives. Not many M buyers buy the M for the right reason - being it's the most 'suitable' camera for their needs. They buy it for the same reason it's been purchased since 1954. Also nowadays it's purchased for prestige. though many, or as I said, 'most' M buyers would probably be better served with a Q, TL or SL camera. 

I have been an M user for 27 years, written many articles on Leica cameras and taught thousands of Leica students, independently, and officially as Manager of Leica Akademie in Thailand. I know the Leica customer very well, and most would never admit how much they struggle using the M, and find ways to justify the purchase, as well as the unsuccessful images they produce. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying 'everyone'. There are many who feel at home with it right away and have no issues at all. But a majority do struggle somewhat and previous to YouTube and Steve Huff and other blogs, there was little assistance the M buyer could receive. Nowadays its much easier to get help and find good resourceful information to assist in it's usage.

Now if you're starting to get defensive as an M owner, you're probably one of those who has struggled but maybe a little afraid to admit it. Thats ok. I am not here to praise Leica products. I have always spoken honestly and openly and always will. With so many great Leica alternatives, I think many potential buyers who may have just opted for the M are now being better served by other cameras that are more suitable as easier to use, all-round functional tools. There is no doubt that in the hands of a skilled experienced photographer, professional or not, the SL will outshoot the M easily, especially in fast paced situations where speed is of importance, or where a zoom or autofocus has significant advantages.

For those maybe seeking a little more prestige, or more ambitious, more skilled, or seeking a challenge, the M is THE camera to own. Always has been, and always will.

Hope that clears the air 😉

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[Kristian Dowling]

On 10/26/2020 at 11:22 PM, Slender said:

Lets be real, how many of Leica's M camera are sold to Pros, or dare I say competent hobbyists? Too many silly editions for collectors to buy those, and a healthy number of pre-retiring dentists and GPs  - I respect all trades and walks in life, I need to mention it -  get their Ms like other get Rolexes. Nothing wrong with this if it maintains the M and brand alive and well, although jacking up prices and certainly diverting too much of the Leica RnD dept. attention away from other lines up (CL, T, SL, S). You hear so many complaining about Ms being slow to focus etc, etc, while if you really practice it is one of the best camera there is around for this, and IQ, in this package size.

The number of digital M for sale with shutter actuations below 3 to 5000 for 3, 5, 9 years old cameras is mad, and a good indication that most people who buy them dont use/know/or truly enjoy it. Same for the numerous populations of second-hand Noctiluxes 50, regularly on sale at the same time at RedDotCameras, it is a good indication of lenses dilletantes buy, use it a couple of times, and sell it back. I got my 4 year old M9 with 2800 clics on it, sold it 5 years later with 100 000 on it. Same day I sold my 50f2 to some "her doktor" in Germany who claimed he owned/sold/bought again.... 4 of those exact same lenses. And he doesnt even own an M camera, and told me the lens I sold him in august stayed in the cupboard until last week, just to have a play with it: no pictures taken. 🤪 . A charming gentleman anyhow, but not an isolated case.

I loved my Ms and used them to bit for my photography, as an aspiring and then eventualy pro, but I had to sell it all to transition to SL system, which is absolutely great. I will get another M whenever possible to go alongside with. Probably some second-hand barely used-mint M10P silver from one of those guys, they essentialy test drive it for me and get rid of taxmoney+deflation for me.

Dont believe me about those people? check this out: http://summilux.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=97209

M10r un-opened, bought in august when it was virtually unavailable in stores worldwide, except to the people on top of the seller's lists of regular buyers. Some of those list include pros and otherwise excellent photographers, but mostly not.

So to rebound on the "most people probably shouldn't buy Ms" I say there is nothing to prevent them from doing so, and they help maintain the brand afloat, and with the trickle-down economics of second hand market make it available to others inderectly like myself, once they sell their toys they dont always understand. Albeit at the cost of inflated prices, excecrable brand image and marketing bloat taking over from R and D that would be more meaningful to some other folks.

If you look at my comments above, hopefully I have made my point clearer. 🙂

[Slender]

It was my clumsy attempt to go in your direction, too 😁. It is sad to think about all those M cameras gathering dust or shooting cats once a month.

[Guest BlackBarn]

4 hours ago, Kristian Dowling said:

Now if you're starting to get defensive as an M owner, you're probably one of those who has struggled but maybe a little afraid to admit it. Thats ok. I am not here to praise Leica products

Well Kristian....thanks  for adding a bit of an explanation to your ‘most M buyers shouldn’t be buying it’ statement but I think you are digging a bigger hole. 

‘ I’m not here to praise Leica products’.   Well it appears to me you have produced a bit of a self promo and marketing video for Leica with splashes of ‘I deserve a Leica’ for emphasis and so on and so forth.  But more to the point,  later you compound that with a statement which is simply arrogant ...which you consider honesty. You have a conviction  that the ring fenced segment of the photographic world you occupy, has given you the credentials to make a broad statement across a number of M owners, who have choose to purchase the M product for multifaceted reasons and take enjoyment and pride from learning, using and creating with it. Have you considered the world you occupy isn’t representative?

How on earth can you suggest that the majority of M owners - or new owners or whatever -  do not have the intent, perseverance and ability to use that camera because it is so so difficult to use and that they would be better of with a camera which does everything for them?  Not certain how that all dovetails with ‘ A camera doesn’t make you better...potential can not be realised without putting in the work’.

Anyway it would be very interesting to know if the senior management at Leica support your statement ....why don’t you go and find out and let me know?

As to your ‘defensive’.......’a little afraid to admit it’ bit above.  Oh come on Kristian wasn’t that sort of comment level left in kiddie  playground years ago along with the hopscotch chalk.

Let’s leave it at you think you were saying something honest and insightful and I think you did a Gerald Ratner.

 

[_Michael]

19 hours ago, Kristian Dowling said:

My mind is very clear. For purchasers of Leica, the M for many years was the ONLY camera to buy, especially if they weren't interested in the R line. It's basically a default camera to buy. It also happens to be Leica's hero product and rightfully so given i's history, revolution in creating the 35mm format, and testimony from users who have created some of history's most significant images.

When I refer to M buyers, I am talking about the modern M buyer that now has many great Leica alternatives. Not many M buyers buy the M for the right reason - being it's the most 'suitable' camera for their needs. They buy it for the same reason it's been purchased since 1954. Also nowadays it's purchased for prestige. though many, or as I said, 'most' M buyers would probably be better served with a Q, TL or SL camera. 

I have been an M user for 27 years, written many articles on Leica cameras and taught thousands of Leica students, independently, and officially as Manager of Leica Akademie in Thailand. I know the Leica customer very well, and most would never admit how much they struggle using the M, and find ways to justify the purchase, as well as the unsuccessful images they produce. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying 'everyone'. There are many who feel at home with it right away and have no issues at all. But a majority do struggle somewhat and previous to YouTube and Steve Huff and other blogs, there was little assistance the M buyer could receive. Nowadays its much easier to get help and find good resourceful information to assist in it's usage.

Now if you're starting to get defensive as an M owner, you're probably one of those who has struggled but maybe a little afraid to admit it. Thats ok. I am not here to praise Leica products. I have always spoken honestly and openly and always will. With so many great Leica alternatives, I think many potential buyers who may have just opted for the M are now being better served by other cameras that are more suitable as easier to use, all-round functional tools. There is no doubt that in the hands of a skilled experienced photographer, professional or not, the SL will outshoot the M easily, especially in fast paced situations where speed is of importance, or where a zoom or autofocus has significant advantages.

For those maybe seeking a little more prestige, or more ambitious, more skilled, or seeking a challenge, the M is THE camera to own. Always has been, and always will.

Hope that clears the air 😉

Kristin, I appreciate your viewpoint very much. While I have enjoyed shooting with a M body, and have been able to create some wonderful images I found it limiting. For me it’s my eyesight and my typical desire for more critical focus.  I just sold my M body and tomorrow I anticipate a Summicron SL 50 to arrive. (I told you I thought your video was going to cost me!)
 

Lately I have summarized what you say above as the romantic calling of the M.  It is nearly impossible to not feel that as one with a great deal of respect and adoration of the image creation process.  

[Kristian Dowling]

17 hours ago, BlackBarn said:

Well Kristian....thanks  for adding a bit of an explanation to your ‘most M buyers shouldn’t be buying it’ statement but I think you are digging a bigger hole. 

‘ I’m not here to praise Leica products’.   Well it appears to me you have produced a bit of a self promo and marketing video for Leica with splashes of ‘I deserve a Leica’ for emphasis and so on and so forth.  But more to the point,  later you compound that with a statement which is simply arrogant ...which you consider honesty. You have a conviction  that the ring fenced segment of the photographic world you occupy, has given you the credentials to make a broad statement across a number of M owners, who have choose to purchase the M product for multifaceted reasons and take enjoyment and pride from learning, using and creating with it. Have you considered the world you occupy isn’t representative?

How on earth can you suggest that the majority of M owners - or new owners or whatever -  do not have the intent, perseverance and ability to use that camera because it is so so difficult to use and that they would be better of with a camera which does everything for them?  Not certain how that all dovetails with ‘ A camera doesn’t make you better...potential can not be realised without putting in the work’.

Anyway it would be very interesting to know if the senior management at Leica support your statement ....why don’t you go and find out and let me know?

As to your ‘defensive’.......’a little afraid to admit it’ bit above.  Oh come on Kristian wasn’t that sort of comment level left in kiddie  playground years ago along with the hopscotch chalk.

Let’s leave it at you think you were saying something honest and insightful and I think you did a Gerald Ratner.

 

I can come back with a defensive statement but people will always choose to believe what they want, so you're welcome to believe whatever makes you comfortable.

 

Cheers

[Kristian Dowling]

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1 hour ago, _Michael said:

Kristin, I appreciate your viewpoint very much. While I have enjoyed shooting with a M body, and have been able to create some wonderful images I found it limiting. For me it’s my eyesight and my typical desire for more critical focus.  I just sold my M body and tomorrow I anticipate a Summicron SL 50 to arrive. (I told you I thought your video was going to cost me!)
 

Lately I have summarized what you say above as the romantic calling of the M.  It is nearly impossible to not feel that as one with a great deal of respect and adoration of the image creation process.  

Thank you for your insight Michael. It's a shame about the M. It's a hell of a camera that provides one of the most unique and special user experiences but at the same time the SL will hopefully be the better camera for your needs. The SL 50, whoever you've chosen will be incredible - though the Lux is very large....so I anticipate you being very happy with the results. The SL will take some time to get used to but like any tool, once you know it, everything falls into place. Hopefully the romantic calling of the M will transfer over and you'll be happy for years to come.

All the best, KD

[Archiver]

On 10/26/2020 at 11:22 PM, Slender said:

Lets be real, how many of Leica's M camera are sold to Pros, or dare I say competent hobbyists? Too many silly editions for collectors to buy those, and a healthy number of pre-retiring dentists and GPs  - I respect all trades and walks in life, I need to mention it -  get their Ms like other get Rolexes. Nothing wrong with this if it maintains the M and brand alive and well, although jacking up prices and certainly diverting too much of the Leica RnD dept. attention away from other lines up (CL, T, SL, S). You hear so many complaining about Ms being slow to focus etc, etc, while if you really practice it is one of the best camera there is around for this, and IQ, in this package size.

Fairly soon after the M10-P was released in Australia, one such camera appeared in the window of a local secondhand dealer. The buyer had never owned a M camera before, but got a M10-P and a few lenses including the APO 50. The experience didn't gel with him, so he took it all back and traded it in for a Q! Honestly, I was stupefied. How could someone spend that much money on an entirely alien system? He spent what must have been around AUD $30k, only to trade it all in for a much less expensive autofocus camera. Bananas.

@Kristian Dowling I enjoyed your video review very much, and it has further encouraged me to get into this system. I've been shooting with the M system for about ten years, and run into its limitations for things like fast moving action and sports. A secondhand SL could be the ticket.

[Archiver]

22 hours ago, BlackBarn said:

How on earth can you suggest that the majority of M owners - or new owners or whatever -  do not have the intent, perseverance and ability to use that camera because it is so so difficult to use and that they would be better of with a camera which does everything for them?  Not certain how that all dovetails with ‘ A camera doesn’t make you better...potential can not be realised without putting in the work’

When I bought my M9 just over ten years ago, it was the most amount of money I'd ever spent on anything that wasn't transport or housing. I practically felt my guts fall out of my backside when I handed over the cash. I'd shot with the Zeiss Ikon ZM for a few years prior, so I was familiar with, and deeply enjoyed, rangefinder shooting. But that wasn't adequate preparation for shooting the M9. Focusing was okay, but exposure was all over the shop, I was used to digital cameras with matrix metering, rather than the wide centre spot of the M.

It took over a month of daily experimentation and frustration before I got the hang of it, and I persevered because a. I had spent a ridiculous amount of money and b. the image quality was like nothing else I had, including the 5D Mark II. A few months after getting the M9, I took it to Japan and took some of the best pictures of my life. My M9 was joined by a M7 later that year, and the M9 still comes with me on every important trip. The M9 remains my favourite camera, among the many others I have.

Contrast that with the story I told in the previous post, of the guy who dropped 30k on a M10-P, APO 50 and a couple of other lenses, only to be so frustrated he traded it all in for a Q and store credit.

I wonder what proportion of new M users have experiences like mine, vs Mr 30k?

[Kristian Dowling]

23 hours ago, Archiver said:

When I bought my M9 just over ten years ago, it was the most amount of money I'd ever spent on anything that wasn't transport or housing. I practically felt my guts fall out of my backside when I handed over the cash. I'd shot with the Zeiss Ikon ZM for a few years prior, so I was familiar with, and deeply enjoyed, rangefinder shooting. But that wasn't adequate preparation for shooting the M9. Focusing was okay, but exposure was all over the shop, I was used to digital cameras with matrix metering, rather than the wide centre spot of the M.

It took over a month of daily experimentation and frustration before I got the hang of it, and I persevered because a. I had spent a ridiculous amount of money and b. the image quality was like nothing else I had, including the 5D Mark II. A few months after getting the M9, I took it to Japan and took some of the best pictures of my life. My M9 was joined by a M7 later that year, and the M9 still comes with me on every important trip. The M9 remains my favourite camera, among the many others I have.

Contrast that with the story I told in the previous post, of the guy who dropped 30k on a M10-P, APO 50 and a couple of other lenses, only to be so frustrated he traded it all in for a Q and store credit.

I wonder what proportion of new M users have experiences like mine, vs Mr 30k?

Persistence and crated opportunities got you over the line. That is what's required by any photographer, and more so with the Leica M, specifically first time users. Since you progressed from a Zeiss Ikon, the transitional strain was minimal. In some ways 30k is very little for a 'luxury good'. Watches are comparatively MUCH more expensive. I love hearing first time Leica buyers cry when they hear about the Noctilux price when they just spent 200k on a Patek. 

Everything is relative to the value we put on it, but more so with a camera, it's only as good as the pictures we take with it - from that perspective, it can be priceless, with value dictated by the user, and not the market - unlike luxury watches 😉

[Guest BlackBarn]

On 10/29/2020 at 11:15 PM, Archiver said:

I wonder what proportion of new M users have experiences like mine, vs Mr 30k?

The SL was my sole camera for three years and I loved it to bits and still do.....a design icon.  I had all the SL Zooms and the .95 nocti.  In the last year I started mainly shooting  in  B/W and so was becoming interested in the mono versions but aware, that the M for some users,  had a  ‘difficulty to use’ tag and may be a step back in terms of ease of use , say for focusing the Nocti. However following the introduction of the M10M I recently decided to buy it as my first M which I did around 10 weeks ago.  After the first week of use I looked at the SL and it’s trappings and though ‘why have I got all that stuff  this camera is all I need. Since then the appreciation and admiration of that M has grown. It has given me access to the native creative lenses as well as the more optically refined in a well designed small package.

However it wasn’t all I needed. There is a desire on occasions to shoot in colour...may be 5% of my shots.... so  I decided to buy the QP as my colour camera...fantastic products the Q range but using it - for me - the restrictive 28mm didn’t work so I gave it to my son (he had previously refused the SL and lenses).  Two weeks ago I decided to purchase the M10r and when in the Leica store I also asked to see the SL2.  I had the 2 side by side and  in the end went for the  SL2 along with the APO SL 35mm. The only reason was weather sealing of both camera and the native lenses. To call the SL2 a jack of all trades is a disservice however it provides colour and  strong b/w capabilities in inclement environments. 

I really admire the SL line and everything Kristian has said about it is spot on, however, as the question is about personal experiences mine  is that when I have the SL2 in hand I feel like a photographer - a person with a camera - which is something not for me. When I have the M in hand I feel like a creative individual and the camera dissolves in my hand.  I didn’t realise that marked differences until I work with the M, it’s simplicity and appreciating its potential along with those historic native lenses. Using the SL is like packing a suitcase with all the things you think you might need and the M is like just going out  with the clothes on your back.

If I had to choose between my small Patek Nautilus watch collection and my cameras, the cameras would win every time. If I were to choose between my cameras  and  my painting and sculpture tools the cameras would hit the bin.....except for my M which would be placed reverently in my paintbrush jar.
 

[Kristian Dowling]

On 10/31/2020 at 9:27 AM, BlackBarn said:

The SL was my sole camera for three years and I loved it to bits and still do.....a design icon.  I had all the SL Zooms and the .95 nocti.  In the last year I started mainly shooting  in  B/W and so was becoming interested in the mono versions but aware, that the M for some users,  had a  ‘difficulty to use’ tag and may be a step back in terms of ease of use , say for focusing the Nocti. However following the introduction of the M10M I recently decided to buy it as my first M which I did around 10 weeks ago.  After the first week of use I looked at the SL and it’s trappings and though ‘why have I got all that stuff  this camera is all I need. Since then the appreciation and admiration of that M has grown. It has given me access to the native creative lenses as well as the more optically refined in a well designed small package.

However it wasn’t all I needed. There is a desire on occasions to shoot in colour...may be 5% of my shots.... so  I decided to buy the QP as my colour camera...fantastic products the Q range but using it - for me - the restrictive 28mm didn’t work so I gave it to my son (he had previously refused the SL and lenses).  Two weeks ago I decided to purchase the M10r and when in the Leica store I also asked to see the SL2.  I had the 2 side by side and  in the end went for the  SL2 along with the APO SL 35mm. The only reason was weather sealing of both camera and the native lenses. To call the SL2 a jack of all trades is a disservice however it provides colour and  strong b/w capabilities in inclement environments. 

I really admire the SL line and everything Kristian has said about it is spot on, however, as the question is about personal experiences mine  is that when I have the SL2 in hand I feel like a photographer - a person with a camera - which is something not for me. When I have the M in hand I feel like a creative individual and the camera dissolves in my hand.  I didn’t realise that marked differences until I work with the M, it’s simplicity and appreciating its potential along with those historic native lenses. Using the SL is like packing a suitcase with all the things you think you might need and the M is like just going out  with the clothes on your back.

If I had to choose between my small Patek Nautilus watch collection and my cameras, the cameras would win every time. If I were to choose between my cameras  and  my painting and sculpture tools the cameras would hit the bin.....except for my M which would be placed reverently in my paintbrush jar.
 

Well said mate, couldn't agree more on many points. I love the SL and it's my preferred camera to 'work' with, but my heart will always be in the M. While it may not be the best camera for first time camera users, it will usually end up in their hands at some point and when it does, if they are ready for it, it will be unforgettable.