Lumix S5 (vs. S1) ISO test shots

[Chaemono]

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My initial observation on the dual native ISO of the S5 - at 640 for stills - is that it allows for better 'push-ability' of files in high contrast scenes without or with less white pixel/speckle problems (need to check higher ISO). It's an issue that all FF cameras more or less have in severely underexposed areas, including the S1. If one is shooting live music, theater, like Dan here in #9 https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/250077-white-pixels-issue/ (or Steve Huff for that matter), one can lift shadows - of the ISO 640 - to the extreme with no regrets. 

I hacked the S5 files so that Preview can open and LR load them. As a consequence, LR is using the S1 profile which may not be ideal but good enough to see the difference here. These are with zero NR and Sharpening at +40 for both. Focus point may not be on the exact same spot but it doesn't matter for this illustration. Notice how the S5 picture is slightly brighter.

S1 + 50 Summicron-SL as shot with WB adjusted to try to match. RAW file download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g289837902-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=OmLK8NVb5xAqCp1vgM3W0IUq-ttfbIiON3fT1AxYYtw=

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ISO 640 f/4 @1/200 sec.

S5 + 50 Summicron-SL as shot with WB adjusted to try to match. RAW file download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g87531680-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=UnE88ovfEmMwA7oEjEmtp_qMzfF9AKhvlI291H5UcZI=ISO 640 f/4 @1/200 sec.

 

[Chaemono]

Now with the shadows lifted all the way.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-k9nCT7/

S1 (Exposure + .15, Shadows +100 in LR)

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S5 (Shadows +100 in LR)

[Chaemono]

Crops of the upper left hand corners. This can make a difference as no NR or PS dust and scratches filter (😂) needs to be applied to the S5 ISO 640 file to deal with the white speckles. If you can't see it, clean your monitors. 🤣

S1

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S5

[Archiver]

Very interesting! I can hardly see any difference, or the difference is so small as to be negligible.

Coming from the 5D Mark II, which has shadow banding, noise and cross hatching that looks like a mad Scotsman ejaculated on the picture, the S5 looks like perfection.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Archiver

[Chaemono]

That's because JPEG compression here deals with most of the problem. Wait till you see the ISO 6400 files. 😂

Edited September 18, 2020 by Chaemono

[tom.w.bn]

We are looking at a 100% crop of the image, not the whole image, right? To me it looks like an improvement I will never notice on print or in normal view of the whole image.

 

 

[Chaemono]

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As I said, wait till you see the green color cast in the pushed ISO 6400 S1 files (Shadows +75 and +100 in LR).  S5 pushed ISO 6400 files look super clean. Will post them later. Need to do some work now to pay for the S5. 😂

BTW, there is one issue with using the S5 to photograph events in low-light, high contrast scenes where good 'push-ability' of files would come in handy, an obnoxiously loud shutter sound. I can't believe they didn't dampen that thing. There is a silent shooting mode but with no anti-flickering feature for artificial light sources as far as I can tell.  Panasonic seems to have thought more of videographers when designing the S5. Too bad, because that sensor with the clean resolution the Summicron-SL lenses give is awesome for low-light situations.

[Archiver]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

As I said, wait till you see the green color cast in the pushed ISO 6400 S1 files (Shadows +75 and +100 in LR).  S5 pushed ISO 6400 files look super clean. Will post them later. Need to do some work now to pay for the S5. 😂

BTW, there is one issue with using the S5 to photograph events in low-light, high contrast scenes where good 'push-ability' of files would come in handy, an obnoxiously loud shutter sound. I can't believe they didn't dampen that thing. There is a silent shooting mode but with no anti-flickering feature for artificial light sources as far as I can tell.  Panasonic seems to have thought more of videographers when designing the S5. Too bad, because that sensor with the clean resolution the Summicron-SL lenses give is awesome for low-light situations.

Wait, 'obnoxiously loud shutter sound'?? How bad it is compared with the S1? Ugh, that's no good.

I suspect the S5 is their full frame GH5 by stealth. It may be at least partially catering to the GH5 video shooters with Canon lenses, of which there would be quite a few. A lot of GH3 and GH4 users bought Speedboosters, then migrated to the GH5 and GH5S with their Speedboosters and Canon glass. The S5 allows them to neatly upgrade the body without upgrading glass, but also provides an entry point to native L mount glass. One wonders.

[Chaemono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Archiver:

Wait, 'obnoxiously loud shutter sound'?? How bad it is compared with the S1? Ugh, that's no good.

I suspect the S5 is their full frame GH5 by stealth. It may be at least partially catering to the GH5 video shooters with Canon lenses, of which there would be quite a few. A lot of GH3 and GH4 users bought Speedboosters, then migrated to the GH5 and GH5S with their Speedboosters and Canon glass. The S5 allows them to neatly upgrade the body without upgrading glass, but also provides an entry point to native L mount glass. One wonders.

Relative to the S1 the S5 has a loud clunky sound when one shoots in a church, for example. Let me put it this way, I love the size of the camera and how it feels with the Summicron   SL lenses. Were Leica to make a mini SL2 with the same sensor, I would pay more just for a quieter shutter sound.

It’s really only an issue when shooting in museums, churches, etc. Live music in clubs, concerts would be OK, I guess. It may bother me more in general than other people.

BTW, the S1 acquires focus effortlessly, almost in an instant, in low-light situations with the 50 Summicron SL in AFS. The S5 needs a bit of time. 

[Archiver]

12 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Relative to the S1 the S5 has a loud clunky sound when one shoots in a church, for example. Let me put it this way, I love the size of the camera and how it feels with the Summicron   SL lenses. Were Leica to make a mini SL2 with the same sensor, I would pay more just for a quieter shutter sound.

It’s really only an issue when shooting in museums, churches, etc. Live music in clubs, concerts would be OK, I guess. It may bother me more in general than other people.

BTW, the S1 acquires focus effortlessly, almost in an instant, in low-light situations with the 50 Summicron SL in AFS. The S5 needs a bit of time. 

Have you shot with a M9? I'm wondering how the S5 shutter sound compares with it. It's not necessarily a dealbreaker, but now that you mention museums and churches, those are places I always enjoy shooting. Too bad the shutter sound can't be fixed with a firmware update!

[Chaemono]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Archiver:

Have you shot with a M9? I'm wondering how the S5 shutter sound compares with it. It's not necessarily a dealbreaker, but now that you mention museums and churches, those are places I always enjoy shooting. Too bad the shutter sound can't be fixed with a firmware update!

Yes, think M9 shutter sound, but it feels more fluid, but definitely very mechanical. 

[Boojay]

50 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Yes, think M9 shutter sound, but it feels more fluid, but definitely very mechanical. 

But it does have the electronic shutter option doesn't  it?    Thinking for those times in museums, churches etc.  Have had many a strange look when using my M9P.

Edit,

Sorry just read post #7 above.

 

Edited September 18, 2020 by Boojay

[Chaemono]

This is crazy. Why would anyone bump up the ISO to 6400 in a hight contrast, low-light scene in order to shoot at a shutter speed of 1/2000 sec.? Well, maybe for horse racing in the dark or one would want to close down the lens even more in order to control depth of field. Here 'push-ability' of files, which is not the same as DR but de facto it is, comes into play and the S5 with the Summicron SL lenses set a FF gold standard, IMO. In fact, I don't think the X1D/II can compete at ISO 6400 because no matter how good that MF sensor's DR is at base ISO, it is way too dated for 'push-ability' of high ISO files. 

Again, the S5 RAW files can't be converted with Adobe DNG converter nor can they be opened in Preview/LR at this point. They need to be hacked/renamed in order to fool LR into thinking that they are S1 files.

This is now with Shadows +90 'only' and with Topaz DeNoise AI NR +2, S +30. Crazy clean S5 less compressed JPEG file here, some green cast/color shift in the S1 file: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-k9nCT7/

But first S1 + 50 Summicron-SL as shot (WB adjusted to match, though) RAW file download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g484441220-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=zRzmEcJRIL-DbJ4T08ChpDPeK4PCbQP-GnVAE3xs1g8=

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ISO 6400 f/4 @1/2000 sec.

S5 + 50 Summicron-SL as shot (WB adjusted to match, though) RAW file download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g354274814-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=N0GPfywPfLC2-7iof_sjeylMdXAyYDDgiZoKXc0D9Tk=ISO 6400 f/4 @1/2000 sec.

[Chaemono]

Now the crazy clean pushed ISO 6400 S5 + 50 Summicron-SL picture. Green cast in the S1 picture. 

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-k9nCT7/

S1 Shadows +90, Blacks -15, Exposure and WB adjusted slightly to try to match, Topaz DeNoise N2, S30

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S5 Shadows +90, Blacks -15, WB adjusted to try to match, Topaz DeNoise N2, S30

[Chaemono]

Now suppose you find yourself in a cathedral and you know that you need that clean high ISO performance but you may want 'crop-ability,' too. What to do? 24 or 47 MPx? All of a sudden, it dawns on you, that you've taken the 75 Summicron-SL along and if you stop it down a bit, let's say to f/2.8, 24 or 47 MPx may not matter. 😂 Indeed, you shot a 24 MPx picture of two guys and a girl with a baby and you want to crop a frame just with them in it. No problem.

Less compressed JPEG here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-k9nCT7/

S5 + 75 Summicron-SL

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ISO 640 f/2.8 @1/8 sec.

[Chaemono]

Freakin' crop detail with the 75 Summicron-SL stopped down a bit, and Topaz DeNoise AI, and resized.

Less compressed JPEG here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-k9nCT7/

Same as above cropped

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[Chaemono]

I’d like to mention at this point, that while the IBIS in the S5 may not be quite the same as in the S1, a combo with a Summicron-SL lens is much lighter to hold and allows one to get really sharp pictures at very low shutter speeds.

[Archiver]

@Chaemono Thank you for these early tests, they give some good demonstrations of what to expect in particular real world situations. And I just checked out the dimensions of the APO 50 SL, and it's a touch smaller and about 100g lighter than the Sigma 50mm f1.4 Art, and definitely shorter than the Sigma 18-35! Wasn't expecting that. Although it's about six to ten times the price of the Sigma in Australia, depending on if you buy the Sigma new or used.

[Chaemono]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Archiver:

@Chaemono Thank you for these early tests, they give some good demonstrations of what to expect in particular real world situations. And I just checked out the dimensions of the APO 50 SL, and it's a touch smaller and about 100g lighter than the Sigma 50mm f1.4 Art, and definitely shorter than the Sigma 18-35! Wasn't expecting that. Although it's about six to ten times the price of the Sigma in Australia, depending on if you buy the Sigma new or used.

I have the Sigma 50/1.4 Art. It draws like the 55 Otus, not quite the roll-off and the bokeh of the 50 Summilux-SL if one zooms in here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-P8KGKc/i-G44rRWn. But who cares, hardly anyone can see it and it's amazing wide open for subject separation in portraits like the one of the gentleman playing the barrel organ in the first picture.

But that's it. You are very limited when it comes to its use because in high contrast situations it won't capture highlight and shadow details as cleanly as the Leica lenses can. 

Below the Sigma Art vs. the 50 Summilux-SL on the SL. The Sigma lens is even at a faster shutter speed but still can't handle the highlight detail as well as the Summilux. Same settings in LR except +.2 Exposure in the Sigma picture but you'll get the DNGs anyway.

SL + Sigma 50/1.4 Art DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g528999706-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=TdMTTUXSQh9MJ5EaCoVNsZI3xw3rfT4tl8zF8cVPSFY=

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ISO 100 f/1.4 @1/3200 sec.

SL + 50 Summilux-SL DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g30684643-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=Gbj7FzkStl9GaiYIFONkyOtC7dzC18qn_HDl745TTTc=ISO 100 f/1.4 @1/2500 sec.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Chaemono]

This is even worse. I don't know where the red on the rear wheel in the picture taken with the Sigma lens came from.

The way I see it, the S5 has the best FF sensor for low-light, high contrast situations and it should be paired with lenses that capture the cleanest details in highlights and shadows in order to maximize this exposure latitude potential.

SL + Sigma 50/1.4 Art DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g195511088-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=1v88fNfnKhnqQ9Pzg4JW95rjDA7tFuFu-lsRYNKNlrw=

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ISO 100 f/1.4 @1/4000 sec.

SL + 50 Summilux-SL DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g39285867-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=QfkItj9atug85Yj9EVbWMnCmMlyn-581MjaVennHyPg=ISO 100 f/1.4 @1/4000 sec.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Chaemono