Guest tummydoc Posted August 20, 2007 Share #21 Posted August 20, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Simple fact is a backup camera should be the same, or as close as possible, as your primary camera. One of my professors used to say 'Simple facts come from simple minds' Your statement, chanted by rote on internet forums, may be reasonable for a pro (or an amateur who takes himself way too seriously ) but in practise a backup is anything that can suffice temporarily in case of breakdown. . a film M is not the same as digital and to me is not a good backup IF you can afford a second M8. Aha now we get to the meat of the matter. As I said, on a forum where everyone owns at least one M8, owning more than one is the only way to elevate one's position on the scale of comparative wealth My belief however is that having the financial means to purchase something shouldn't pre-empt making a rational decision based upon an honest assessment (as differentiated from a rationalisation, that everyone but the maker can see is such) of one's own needs. For example since I am a casual shooter with no desire to affect the illusion of being a professional with 2 cameras hanging off my shoulders, a film M left in the hotel safe is plenty enough backup for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 20, 2007 Posted August 20, 2007 Hi Guest tummydoc, Take a look here A Move Back To Film. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
fotografr Posted August 20, 2007 Share #22 Posted August 20, 2007 What's not clear is which is your prime motivator for the switch back to film, the M8 or digital in general. I was ready to step back from the M8, but back to my D200, not back to film. I don't view the issues as related. If one has M lenses and wants to continue using them, the logical move away from the M8 is back to a film M--not to another digital system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted August 20, 2007 Share #23 Posted August 20, 2007 One of my professors used to say 'Simple facts come from simple minds' Your statement, chanted by rote on internet forums, may be reasonable for a pro (or an amateur who takes himself way too seriously ) but in practise a backup is anything that can suffice temporarily in case of breakdown. . Aha now we get to the meat of the matter. As I said, on a forum where everyone owns at least one M8, owning more than one is the only way to elevate one's position on the scale of comparative wealth My belief however is that having the financial means to purchase something shouldn't pre-empt making a rational decision based upon an honest assessment (as differentiated from a rationalisation, that everyone but the maker can see is such) of one's own needs. For example since I am a casual shooter with no desire to affect the illusion of being a professional with 2 cameras hanging off my shoulders, a film M left in the hotel safe is plenty enough backup for me. I don't care for your tone. So I will not bother replying to any of your threads or to replies by you. I would lay odds that you make at least 2-3 times what I make in a year. I am not a rich person but that did not stop me from buying a second M8 body. If you feel that is frivolous so be it, that seems to be your problem. It has nothing to do with trying to keep up with the Jones's or trying to look affluent on this or any other forum. It is WHAT I WANTED and although I can't have everything I want I can have anything I want. I just have to pick and choose what is more important to ME over something else. Each person has different priorities. Have a nice life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tummydoc Posted August 20, 2007 Share #24 Posted August 20, 2007 If one has M lenses and wants to continue using them, the logical move away from the M8 is back to a film M--not to another digital system. I don't disagree. But if one is simply dissatisfied with the unreliability of a particular digital camera but otherwise has no objections to digital, the logical move is to a more reliable digital system. Put another way, that is if one's interest in photography is making photographs, not simply to continue using one's M lenses. I fully acknowledge that my purchase of an M8 (and my tenacity in the face of 2 defective ones) was in the interest of using M lenses in the digital world we live in. However if my livelihood depended upon photography I would not switch backward into film in order to remain loyal to a brand or to utilise some lenses, I would sell those lenses and so straight-on into a more reliable system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tummydoc Posted August 20, 2007 Share #25 Posted August 20, 2007 I don't care for your tone. So I will not bother replying to any of your threads or to replies by you.I would lay odds that you make at least 2-3 times what I make in a year. I am not a rich person but that did not stop me from buying a second M8 body. If you feel that is frivolous so be it, that seems to be your problem. It has nothing to do with trying to keep up with the Jones's or trying to look affluent on this or any other forum. It is WHAT I WANTED and although I can't have everything I want I can have anything I want. I just have to pick and choose what is more important to ME over something else. Each person has different priorities. Have a nice life. Quite a boiling cauldron of defenciveness in response to a smiley-laden bit of teasing, isn't it? Almost makes me believe the implausible, that I hit the nail squarely on the head Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsh Posted August 20, 2007 Author Share #26 Posted August 20, 2007 Please Be Nice To One Another. This Thread Was Not Meant To Raise Hackles. It Is Really Important To Respect Other's Opinions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tummydoc Posted August 20, 2007 Share #27 Posted August 20, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Some people raise their hackles whenever anyone dares not to nod in agreement. I believe a group of intelligent folk like this would agree that one need not be concerned with their affected ire, which is simply an attempt to intimidate others into submission. There is only one way to "be nice" to that sort, and that is to placate them by agreeing. That however would do injustice to your thread, which deserves a fair discourse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsh Posted August 20, 2007 Author Share #28 Posted August 20, 2007 Okey Dokey. By the way, I am not a professional. Photography has always been a pastime and a hobby. It is my get away from the day to day rigors of running a one person business and raisng two children with my lovely wife. On a non photographic note, is anyone would like to view a PSA may 11 Year Old Daughter shot this past summer, go to: STOP NEIGHBORHOOD SPEEDING! or PEDS - Home - Pedestrians Educating Drivers on Safety. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted August 20, 2007 Share #29 Posted August 20, 2007 However if my livelihood depended upon photography I would not switch backward into film in order to remain loyal to a brand or to utilise some lenses, I would sell those lenses and so straight-on into a more reliable system. That is the crux of the issue. I would surmise that is not the case here. Obviously, professionals do not have the choise about going digital because that is increasingly what is being demanded. But for one who is doing photography as an avocation, it makes perfect sense to me that he would want to continue to use the M lenses on film bodies rather than invest in a whole new system. There is also the strong possibility that he, like myself and many others here, has developed a preference for using a rangefinder system. I am not aware of any digital rangefinder systems on the market other than Leica (I am exclucing the Epson RD-1 because it is not a full system, nor would I consider it an adequate replacement for the M8). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted August 20, 2007 Share #30 Posted August 20, 2007 Okey Dokey. By the way, I am not a professional. Photography has always been a pastime and a hobby. It is my get away from the day to day rigors of running a one person business and raisng two children with my lovely wife.{snipped}. Richard, I honestly think the biggest difference you're seeing between using an M8 and using a film M is that when you shoot your rolls of Portra, or whatever, you don't go into the colour lab yourself and develop them. That's what digital has done for many non-pros: made them into lab technicians. What I would do if I were you is shoot a roll of RAW files, then send those to an excellent lab who will colour correct and print properly for you. I think you'll be amazed at the results, and won't consider the m8 a "video camera" any more. BTW--if you're doing your own black and white I'd still recommend the good digital lab. The media are just not the same and the learning curve to get the best from each is enormous. Of course, the best (or very good) from film is insitutionalized and long-standing; digital processing is still in its infancy. But to consider the M8 as not a serious photographic tool is, well, disingenuous given your comments on other's photography. IOW, your results are "driver error", and you'd be just as frustrated with colour film if you developed that yourself. Sorry to be so blunt, but that's the way I see it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsh Posted August 20, 2007 Author Share #31 Posted August 20, 2007 I should have explained myself more clearly in the original post. The M8 is indeed a serious tool for most of you, and I truly respect that. I will continue to use it when I get it back. My personal preference is film. I just like the look. I am not saying film is better than digital. My 11 year old likes digital, and I have given her a V-Lux 1 to learn on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic vic Posted August 20, 2007 Share #32 Posted August 20, 2007 i am saying that film is better than digital......... enough with this putzi mutzi talks.... who afrraids of those digi boys masses and their repeated kitsch talks ?? ) oh three m8s are needed....... for each lens and eazch colour.... and backups of this and that........ damn....... from what i see.... most of the case a better choice woudl be to give in hand a simple plastic camera and through those tech-toy-boys to the sea so that they will learn to swim in photograpghy and light a little bit...... so that they will learn how to present subject instead of thinking that M8 noctilux aperture/lighroom.c1 will do it for them.............. ten cameras ..... and if u dont know to take a pic no noctilux will help u.......... how fast people get exited to talk about two or three back-up m8 ...... noctiluxes summiluxes...... with crap photos that they schyzoprenically and obssesivly convince themselves that those are the samples of the great LEICA photography.......... looks at the bokeh of that kistch crap photo...... look the resolution of that crap......... and all this see on the shity internet file........ looks how great is noctilux sumilux........ buy two, three even four in different colours....... no in black.... it looks more proffesional......... no in chrome...... it looks more classic....... ok ok in both....... anyway the back up is needed......... we are pros and need it to make stuning photographs that our clients require....... we are super photographers ..... with super super super tests of lenses........ oh leica is because it is so small and compact........ unobstrussive......... everybody knows those interent legend rite ? and next sentance is: two three backs ups 100000000000 lenses in the bag.......... super compact.... ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted August 20, 2007 Share #33 Posted August 20, 2007 My 11 year old likes digital, and I have given her a V-Lux 1 to learn on. Sign her up here. Many of our debates/discussions are appropriate to that age group, as you have just witnessed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsh Posted August 20, 2007 Author Share #34 Posted August 20, 2007 Vic and Brent: You just made me laugh! Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 20, 2007 Share #35 Posted August 20, 2007 i am saying that film is better than digital......... enough with this putzi mutzi talks.... who afrraids of those digi boys masses and their repeated kitsch talks ?? ) oh three m8s are needed....... for each lens and eazch colour.... and backups of this and that........ damn....... from what i see.... most of the case a better choice woudl be to give in hand a simple plastic camera and through those tech-toy-boys to the sea so that they will learn to swim in photograpghy and light a little bit...... so that they will learn how to present subject instead of thinking that M8 noctilux aperture/lighroom.c1 will do it for them.............. ten cameras ..... and if u dont know to take a pic no noctilux will help u.......... how fast people get exited to talk about two or three back-up m8 ...... noctiluxes summiluxes...... with crap photos that they schyzoprenically and obssesivly convince themselves that those are the samples of the great LEICA photography.......... looks at the bokeh of that kistch crap photo...... look the resolution of that crap......... and all this see on the shity internet file........ looks how great is noctilux sumilux........ buy two, three even four in different colours....... no in black.... it looks more proffesional......... no in chrome...... it looks more classic....... ok ok in both....... anyway the back up is needed......... we are pros and need it to make stuning photographs that our clients require....... we are super photographers ..... with super super super tests of lenses........ oh leica is because it is so small and compact........ unobstrussive......... everybody knows those interent legend rite ? and next sentance is: two three backs ups 100000000000 lenses in the bag.......... super compact.... ) You should have told me this a hour ago , just bought a new MacBook Pro instead i could have bought a Wing Lynch processor for film. LOL Im you forgot FF too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsh Posted August 20, 2007 Author Share #36 Posted August 20, 2007 Guy: You crack me up! Seriously, I admire your photography and I like your posts. And, as far as I am concerned, you can buy every lens and camera Leica makes if it makes ouy happy and does not inflame your other half to the point that I will read your obituary on the Forum! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 20, 2007 Share #37 Posted August 20, 2007 Thanks Richard, gotta have a little fun around here too. My other half thinks I am nuts, no need to argue with her. LOL Imants , NOW THAT WAS FUNNY. You do have some zingers sometimes. LOL Seriously though you guys remember the Wing Lynch. We had one at Honeywell when i worked there years ago and i really liked that machine. I could do E-6 or C-41. Honestly i do miss film sometimes and it is fun to hear from the film shooters when they talk chemicals and some of the printing that was done. I did a lot of B&W work in the day under a instructor that was taught by Ansel and Fred Picker. Great guy and the zone system was a kick to learn and shoot by. I'm really glad I stsrted photography at 16 and learned so much about film through the years. The younger generation is really missing out on those techniques Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted August 20, 2007 Share #38 Posted August 20, 2007 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted August 20, 2007 Share #39 Posted August 20, 2007 Sorry to hear of your woes, Richard. I hope Leica is able to get your M8 sorted much faster this time, than the last. With your digital body out of whack, I can certainly understand the move back to using film. The appeal of the M8 to me is the marriage of the Leica rangefinder schtick with an elegant and high-quality digital implementation. I've used DSLRs for years, having long recognized the convenience and benefits of the digital world. But it was my M7 or M6 loaded with Tri-X which always accompanied me to work every day; or when the wife and I would head down to the bookstore or cafe. The DSLRs invariably provided a result I liked. The Leicas... well, they spoke to my heart. The M8 brought those worlds together for me. Since I'm neither rich, nor a pro, spending $5k for a camera was quite a stretch for me. What I've found interesting is the rationalization my mind has gone through trying to convince me to buy a second M8 body. I love it that much. Alas, what we gain, we also lose. I have not fired a frame in either of my film Leicas since purchasing the M8. I feel guilty when I think of the half-shot rolls of Tri-X now languishing in them. Or the last batch of XTOL that I never mixed up. But that's ok. I know they are there, waiting. And if I ever end up without my M8 (or two!), I'd go back to them in a heartbeat. Best of luck... Jeff P.S. Congratulations, Guy, on the new MacBook Pro. Apple is the only other company that I have the same fondness for that I have for Leica. And the MacBook Pro I'm typing this on is the best computer I've ever owned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic vic Posted August 20, 2007 Share #40 Posted August 20, 2007 richard... ya . im laughing like crazy sometimes when i read posts here or write some myself ) guy..... mac pook pro hmmmmmm........ wow ..... wow wow wow......... u trying to f***ing impress me with that.......... tell me what u think : im cheap slut, stupid gadget jerk or poor third world guy who only recently heard about the "greats" of the company with apple logo shining on it ) ???????? hahha very impressive........ im stuned....... u r the man ........ the man with leica x1000000000000000000 and macbooksprosx10000000000000000 hahhahahaha richard... u admire........ tell me who is guy.... ? alex from macedonia ? or andre kertesz making his first pics in paris ? or maybe u just admire his huge collection of lenses, i mean the photographs with those lenses,,,,,, no i mean the collection itself....... no im confused ...... leave it ) ah guy, by the way .... congrats with the thing - cool and fast ) 15 or 17 ? by the way, stil the external cinema is needed when really accurate colour should be done....... but otherwise seems more perfect each time they release upgrades...... go and keep pace with them ... hahhaha......... better with leica......... better summilux????? no chance ... not in near future at least Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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