Using high ISO (3200, 6400, ...) with the SL2

[Chaemono]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

It could be that the thread is moved to the Digital Post Processing Forum, but I think it's appropriate to start the topic here. The reasons are, a lot has been said about the SL2's high ISO noise in various threads and Photon to Photos shows the camera to have inferior DR to the S1R even though both use the same sensor and Leica has a better implementation of it, IMO. At ISO 100 the SL2 definitely produces better files in high contrast scenes than the S1R and nothing I saw at higher ISO values pointed to such a stark difference that Bill Claff measured. The only reason I can think of why the S1R does better in his charts is clever algorithms applied by Panasonic to cook the S1R's RAW files. Leica in general cooks RAW files less is my impression which is an advantage in many situations but with high MPx sensors it can start to become a noise issue at higher ISOs.

In this thread, I intend to post SL2 high ISO pictures in order to show how applying clever algorithms can improve the IQ substantially. This applies only to well exposed images, also in darker settings, and sufficiently lighted scenes. I will avoid high contrast situations because of the limited ability to push SL2/S1R high ISO files there. Any SL2 or S1R user who wants the best 'push-ability' of high ISO files should get the upcoming 24 MPx Panasonic S5, IMO. The S1 would do, too, but it's big and ugly. The S5 is substantially smaller and, therefore, should be cute kind of ugly in an inconspicuous way.

Here's an old picture I found. When shot noise is low and high ISO files don't need to be pushed too much (+0.35 exposure and +56 shadows in LR here), Topaz DeNoise AI does an amazing job in eliminating noise while maintaining a crips rendering of the subject in focus.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-cMqxXt/

As shot with only WB adjusted in LR, zero NR, zero Sharpening

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

ISO 3200 f/2 @1/320 sec.

Same as above processed in LR,  Topaz DeNoise AI used for NR & Sharpening

[Chaemono]

Here the crops where the difference becomes apparent.

As shot crop

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

With some Topaz DeNoise AI magic

[Chaemono]

Now DeNoise AI versus the LR version where Sharpening was set at +50 and NR at +35.

LR version

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

With DeNoise magic

[michali]

Thanks for the comparisons. I started using Topaz Denoise a couple of weeks ago and the results have been excellent.

Here's a tricky shot taken in the Okavango Delta in Botswana- SL2 & VE 24-90mm L ISO 1600.  Click through the images to see the difference.

1. Processed in PS-

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

2. Processed in Topaz Denoise on AUTO setting-

 

 

 

 

[Chaemono]

Nice, but would NR and sharpening in LR or C1produce a much different result?

[Chaemono]

Check out the Porsche at ISO 100 and ISO 6400. So close. 🤣

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-cMqxXt/

SL2 + 35 Summicron-SL processed in LR

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

ISO 100 f/2.8 @1/20 sec.

SL2 + 35 Summicron-SL NR and Sharpening in Topaz DeNoise AIISO 6400 f/2.8 @1/1250 sec.

[michali]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

Nice, but would NR and sharpening in LR or C1produce a much different result?

Here's another tricky shot which may answer your question.  SL @ ISO1600 with the Canon 400mm USMII, taken on a cloudy, flat grey evening after sunset. I seldom venture above ISO1600, personally I just find it a pain in the ass having to deal with the noise & loss of detail in PP.  This software could make me rethink my approach.

1. Processed in LR-  Compare the detail on tip of the Leopard's tail, the spots on its backside & the eye with the detail in image #2 below. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

2. Processed in Topaz Denoise in manual setting- boosted noise reduction to 35% -

 

 

Edited August 31, 2020 by michali

[helged]

1 hour ago, michali said:

Here's another tricky shot which may answer your question.  SL @ ISO1600 with the Canon 400mm USMII, taken on a cloudy, flat grey evening after sunset. I seldom venture above ISO1600, personally I just find it a pain in the ass having to deal with the noise & loss of detail in PP.  This software could make me rethink my approach.

1. Processed in LR-  Compare the detail on tip of the Leopard's tail, the spots on its backside & the eye with the detail in image #2 below. 

2. Processed in Topaz Denoise in manual setting- boosted noise reduction to 35% -

 

Interesting! Both subtle - and substantial - improvements here! Need to bring back Topaz from the drawer, somewhere... (the software was very unstable some time ago, but things have improved as far as I understand).

Edited August 31, 2020 by helged

[helged]

7 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Now DeNoise AI versus the LR version where Sharpening was set at +50 and NR at +35.

LR version

With DeNoise magic

Impressive!

[Chaemono]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb helged:

Impressive!

Did you see the M10 ISO 10000 Santa shot here https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-cMqxXt/ - it looks more like ISO 100 - or the shot with the horse here - shadow detail recovered in LR and sharpening and NR done in DeNoise AI -? https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-F6NRmF/

LR smooths, Topaz DeNoise reconstructs. It's basically the beginning or computational photography what we are using. 

[Chaemono]

Porsche ISO 3200. Clean enough?

I resharpened this a bit in LR +19 after round-tripping it to DeNoise AI with auto correction there.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-cMqxXt/

SL2 + 35 Summicron-SL processed in LR, Sharpening and NR in DeNoise AI, resharpened in LR with +19.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

ISO 3200 f/2.8 @1/640 sec.

[helged]

19 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Did you see the M10 ISO 10000 Santa shot here https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-cMqxXt/ - it looks more like ISO 100 - or the shot with the horse here - shadow detail recovered in LR and sharpening and NR done in DeNoise AI -? https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-F6NRmF/

LR smooths, Topaz DeNoise reconstructs. It's basically the beginning or computational photography what we are using. 

 - yes, I recall now. Time to have a new look on Topaz...

[helged]

Just now, Chaemono said:

Porsche ISO 3200. Clean enough?

I resharpened this a bit in LR +19 after round-tripping it to DeNoise AI with auto correction there.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-cMqxXt/

SL2 + 35 Summicron-SL processed in LR, Sharpening and NR in DeNoise AI, resharpened in LR with +19.ISO 3200 f/2.8 @1/640 sec.

Oui! +1...

[Chaemono]

Don't be afraid of ISO 800.

This one is a bit tricky because of the hexagonal honeycomb pattern on the back one the McLaren in the shadows. Fine detail there gets lost if too much noise is created by pushing the shadows too hard with higher ISO SL2/S1R files. DeNoise AI then has a tougher time to reconstruct it. Hence, ISO 800 is what I'm willing to show here.

Look at the less compressed JPEGs to see how clean the ISO 800 picture is: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-cMqxXt/

SL2 + 35 Summicron-SL as shot

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

ISO 800 f/2 @1/400 sec. 

SL2 + 35 Summicron-SL processed in LR, Sharpening and NR in DeNoise AI, resharpened in LR with +18, NR in LR with +15 after round-tripping

[caissa]

Did you also try gigapixel AI ?  Maybe compared to high-res mode ?

[Chaemono]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb caissa:

Did you also try gigapixel AI ?  Maybe compared to high-res mode ?

By the time I’m done trying all these tools, I will have sold all my cameras and lenses and end up just using my cellphone from then on. 😂

[caissa]

You could still keep the equipment and become a collector (using the mobile phone to document the collection).  🥳😜🤪

In the next generation of cameras, these AI tools are maybe already applied inside the camera, before the raw file is written to card. (So not detectable). This would give a boost in high iso noise levels. ISO 50k without noise.

What do you think of the S3 in comparison to all that ?

Edited September 2, 2020 by caissa

[Chaemono]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb caissa:

You could still keep the equipment and become a collector (using the mobile phone to document the collection).  🥳😜🤪

What do you think of the S3 in comparison to all that ?

Love the S3 for how little the files need processing in post for color and skin tones. Also, more 3D look. Low light AF compared to X1D II with the XCD 80/1.9 is pin point accurate with the S3 in the bird cage pictures here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-JkgxSt/

X1D II missed every time. Otherwise XCD with that lens would be the best lowlight compact combo, but AF is basically useless in lowlight and EVF not that great. This leaves the S5 with one of the Summicron SL lenses as the best lowlight AF combo, IMO.

[Dr. G]

5 hours ago, caissa said:

You could still keep the equipment and become a collector (using the mobile phone to document the collection).  🥳😜🤪

In the next generation of cameras, these AI tools are maybe already applied inside the camera, before the raw file is written to card. (So not detectable). This would give a boost in high iso noise levels. ISO 50k without noise.

What do you think of the S3 in comparison to all that ?

Topaz AI products use a fair amount of processing power to get the results they do.  I'm not sure they could be implemented in a camera body.  

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Chaemono]

Let's face it, "stop down for what?" doesn't always apply. Sometimes one needs to stop down even Leica lenses and bump-up the ISO. Structure and detail of wooden figures in low-light then become an issue. ISO 800 at 1/8 sec. handheld thanks to IBIS still worked for DeNoise AI to produce a really clean and detailed picture. The alternative would be to carry the S5 as a second body along which does great at high ISOs.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-cMqxXt/

SL2 + 50 Summicron-SL processed in LR, Sharpening and NR in DeNoise AI

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

ISO 800 f/4 @1/8 sec.