Mechanical / analogue, is it nostalgia or is there more?

[alwinvrm]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

5 minutes ago, malligator said:

I think you may have misunderstood me, and I certainly don't discount the idea that it's because I was confusing. "Mastering the fundamentals" has two keywords. 'Fundamentals' may connote simplicity, but you don't 'master' anything without proper and conscious execution.

I'm enjoying the craft more precisely because the camera doesn't do anything. So far I've only seen one roll of film, and, all in all, the pictures are exposed reasonably well, the focus is good, and there's no rookie mistakes like camera shake. The photos themselves could never be called art, but they show that I at least have a general sense of subject and composition. Basically--to use your definition--they are generally pleasing, at least to me and my partner.

The camera didn't do any of that. The only automatic feature on my M-A is the frame counter. By contrast, my copy of Thom Hogan's Complete Guide to the Nikon D810 and D810A is 956 pages that completely covers everything about the camera (and almost nothing about photography).

I've never been so intensely (to use your word) aware of my photography until I had to read the light and set my own exposure and focus.

 

*****

None of this is to say that there is anything wrong with modern digital cameras. I just get lost in the weeds so I'm enjoying my M-A more. I still have the DSLR and I have no doubt I'm already better at using it after having used the M-A.

*****

Kindly read my sentence that starts with " You would say ... " as "One would say ...". I actually agreed with you, but managed to do that in a rather clumsy way.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[malligator]

30 minutes ago, alwinvrm said:

Kindly read my sentence that starts with " You would say ... " as "One would say ...". I actually agreed with you, but managed to do that in a rather clumsy way.

Forgive me. With the lull in the conversation I lost a bit of the context and points of view. I understand what you were saying now.

[Paulus]

Am 2.7.2020 um 21:27 schrieb pgk:

But nostalgia implies an original enjoyment. Personally I have spent far too long in darkrooms chasing deadlines to ever be nostalgic about film. I have some in the fridge and I will use it when I have the right subject matter to do so. But no, I have no nostalgia for film and its associated long winded and often unpleasant processing. That said, I do remember watching prints develop in front of me though, which always amazed me. Whilst it is sad that few photographers will now experience this, I can't say that I can muster the enthusiasm to set up a darkroom again to experience it myself.

I simpathise with you Paul. I always hated the dark room and it chemicals. I always sweared, that when it would be possible to shoot and print with an M I would never look back. 

But the thing is, that although I am using digital M's for over a decade now. I still cannot manage to sell my MP in such a way, that I did not buy another one some month later. After three attemps, I stopped and nowadays I just make the occasional print in my darkroom, which is still on standby. 

And I must say, the Canadian Summicron 50   in combination with the MP sometimes  gives stunning results, which must be achievable with my M10/50mm combination. For special occasions, I just take them both and am excited about the hidden results of the MP/50 which sometimes are developped months later. 

 

[Paulus]

Am 5.7.2020 um 13:43 schrieb alwinvrm:

A lot of interesting things to read here. In my initial post I wanted to share the unexpected joy I felt, when using an M that happened to have film it after 12 years of digital only. It appears I am not alone.

In the event that chimping is regarded as obsessive compulsive behaviour that is in the way of more worthy things, it is not different from dieting. Just don't buy chocolate or ice cream, just don't. If stronger measure are necessary, a camera without a screen may be an option.

However, the more you trust your camera and your ability to operate it, the less there is a practical need to chimp. I am sure many here remember that when operating a film camera with a film we were used to, we already knew what the negatives would look like at the moment we pressed the button.

Having said that I find the ability to chimp very useful with new multi light studio set ups or so. It also makes life easier when you experiment. I would say that the immediate feedback of chimping is useful for beginners as well. Although, when I speak with the friends of my youngest son, they wonder how you dial a number on my Xpro. Meaning that wanting to learn photography probably requires a different way of seeing than the casual glance on a phone screen we do countless times each day.

When I still shot with my M6, long ago, making pictures together with a friend, who had a Kodak/Nikon DCS 760 camera.  I was a little bit jealous because he could see on his screen how the lighting was. I had to estimate and be uncertain. Everyone before used polaroid to prevent the uncertainty. The possibility to do such a thing in camera was a bless and sience fiction at te same time. 

The moment I bought my first digital camera was a worldturning occasion for me. A real screen where you could see really what had happened. 

In this way, It's not nostalgia for me to use a screenless camera but the same nuissance as it was in that period before the Kodak/Nikon. Maybe that's the reason I would never buy a M-D type of camera. 

But the M5 /M6/MP still are very appealing for me, because of the real nostalgic feeling that I was there and have experienced a world without digital imaging.

Sometimes you just want to go back to where you once belonged.

I cannot imagine how this must be for a millenial.

 

[pgk]

44 minutes ago, Paulus said:

Sometimes you just want to go back to where you once belonged.

Indeed. I do still have an M4 myself.

[sblitz]

Using my M-A or M4 is to me my moment off the grid. No batteries, no lights, no beeps, no buzzing. I have even gotten back to developing my own black and white (scanning with a plustek 8200i. My light meter uses no batteries either. This is a vacation from work and my phone and everything else. Also, as we get older, keeping cognitive functions working is key to keeping one's mind in order. In other words, use it or lose it applies to the brain as well. I also love the emotion conveyed by film. Is this nostalgia? Nope. It is survival. 

[craigr]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Out of professional necessity as a news photographer I shot with highly automated Nikon and Canon DSLRs for many years. I cannot deny the convenience and, today at least, the superb performance of digital image making. Yet, in retirement, I have returned to all-mechanical film cameras, at least for casual hobby use. My favorite setup is a beautiful old M2 with, like Steve Blitz, a battery-less light meter (two of which are pictured).

I am unsure of the source of my fondness for this admittedly outmoded machinery. It's part nostalgia, I suppose, combined with a fascination for mechanical and electromechanical "analog" technology (I also own wind-up watches, restore antique radios and still play LPs on a turntable with self-rebuilt vacuum tube (valve) electronics amplifying them). But, I also  enthusiastically embrace new technology and the ever-fascinating and evolving digital realm.

I suspect that at least part of my affection for film cameras is based on a self-conscious rejection of ugly envy. For instance, I shamefully covet the Leica M10-Monochrom body and now, perhaps, the M10-R as well (one of each, please). The hard reality is that I cannot afford both or either or at least even come close to justifying their purchase (I am married, after all). Oh, I suppose I could sell my 1970 MGB Roadster (another beloved relic) to acquire an M10 variant, but I spent so much loving, personal energy and tool-wielding attention on the restoration of that old LBC (Little British Car) that I am very reluctant to give it up.

So, without a spare $8K-$16K in hand, I tell myself that I actually prefer the imperfect, warm "humanity" of film images as opposed to sterile, clinical digital frames and that developing a 36-exposure roll of film in my Paterson tank and processing the negatives with the not-all-that-bad Epson scanner is more satisfying than swiftly uploading 360 digital files into my computer and joyfully playing with them with nifty software (even with add-ons that, ironically, mimic film imaging). Heck, sometimes my inner voice whispers that I miss my old Focomat enlarger, pungent chemical trays, unforgiving paper sheets and the cozy darkroom that housed them.

And, perhaps I am telling myself the truth. I'll probably never know.

Craig Roberts

Washington, DC

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[sblitz]

That Norwood meter looks just like the Sekonic I use -- wonder which came first? Is the Norwood around anywhere to buy? (Used obviously).

 

[craigr]

Hi Steve,

In 1957 Sekonic bought the rights to manufacture the meter invented by Don Norwood (Hollywood director) and Karl Freund (cinematographer of Metropolis, Dracula and - wait for it -  I Love Lucy). They're still available from time to time on eBay and work perfectly as you know from your Sekonic descendant.

Craig

Washington, DC

[alwinvrm]

2 hours ago, craigr said:

Hi Steve,

In 1957 Sekonic bought the rights to manufacture the meter invented by Don Norwood (Hollywood director) and Karl Freund (cinematographer of Metropolis, Dracula and - wait for it -  I Love Lucy). They're still available from time to time on eBay and work perfectly as you know from your Sekonic descendant.

Craig

Washington, DC

I bought several Westons, because I just love them. Then I replaced my Gossen Lunasix pro, that I used for years, with the smaller - and I thought more practical - Digiflash.

It appears though that my brain can't handle reading a number and then finding that tiny number on a dial and subsequently to line that number up with a marker, whereupon one can find the shutter speed/fstop. That is how Westons, most Sekonics, the Digiflash, etc. work.

The Lunasix allowed you to center a needle with the meter in one hand and then just read out the shutter speed/fstop. I found that so much easier for fast walking around work. I was happy to find the Sekonic twin mate that functions in the same way as the Lunasix. I wonder whether I am alone in my preference for lightmeters that function by centering a needle. Maybe I am just inpatient,but as much as I like the look of Westons, I never got used to the extra steps.

[craigr]

I have a couple of brick-like Weston Masters, too. They're just so, um, substantial and robust. 

The easiest to use battery-free, handheld meter I own, however, is the Zeiss Ikon Ikophot pictured here and in my first post on this topic. One just sets the ISO/DIN/ASA, points the meter at the subject (though there's a slip-on incident light filter attached to the case, too) and rotates the dial to match the indicator to the needle. As you can see, you can then read your shutter speed and aperture from either a fractional or linear scale as appropriate for your camera. Even my 74 year old eyeballs can make out the figures. The only downside to this palm-sized wonder is the lack of a needle lock. As for accuracy, it is spot-on with my Gossen LunaPro and Nikon D4s internal meter. Plus, it's cute!

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[alwinvrm]

1 hour ago, craigr said:

I have a couple of brick-like Weston Masters, too. They're just so, um, substantial and robust. 

The easiest to use battery-free, handheld meter I own, however, is the Zeiss Ikon Ikophot pictured here and in my first post on this topic. One just sets the ISO/DIN/ASA, points the meter at the subject (though there's a slip-on incident light filter attached to the case, too) and rotates the dial to match the indicator to the needle. As you ...

I like this follow the circle system too. It requires one hand and one action only to get the possible fstop/speed combinations. Beautiful design as well. I am still trying to find a Lunapro again (that is the one I had and I still have the spot meter attachment) but I don't see them on the local graigslist.

[craigr]

 I sold my original  Gossen Luna Pro long, long ago (when I got a Leica M5, actually) but wanted to replace it a couple of years ago as I was getting "back to basics".  I found the set pictured here -- complete with untouched manuals -- on  eBay. The set cost less than the MR9 battery adapters I needed to power the meter. Bargains can be had if you're lucky. 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[david strachan]

Another vote for the Ikophot from me.  It's elegant and works reliably without batteries.

Nice and small in the pocket too.

...

[oldwino]

19 hours ago, craigr said:

I have a couple of brick-like Weston Masters, too. They're just so, um, substantial and robust. 

The easiest to use battery-free, handheld meter I own, however, is the Zeiss Ikon Ikophot pictured here and in my first post on this topic. One just sets the ISO/DIN/ASA, points the meter at the subject (though there's a slip-on incident light filter attached to the case, too) and rotates the dial to match the indicator to the needle. As you can see, you can then read your shutter speed and aperture from either a fractional or linear scale as appropriate for your camera. Even my 74 year old eyeballs can make out the figures. The only downside to this palm-sized wonder is the lack of a needle lock. As for accuracy, it is spot-on with my Gossen LunaPro and Nikon D4s internal meter. Plus, it's cute!

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Unfortunately my copy of the Ikophot is no longer accurate. But I keep it because I like the way it looks. 

[rossawilson1]

For me it's not nostalgia it's the process and the look of film that I enjoy. You can get a similar process with an M10-D but knowing your film's colours, having only 36 shots, not snapping away and having to think a little more or raise your standards per shot and then the fact you just can not look at them for a few days at least, yeah digital doesn't do that. People suggest simulating film by not looking at your pics etc but now you're fighting yourself and you're being illogical and your in conflict with yourself when really you should just be concentrating on the next photo or location etc. That's what film allows you to do, it stops you judging yourself in the middle of a shoot. Not always a bad thing but it is really nice to have fewer options in a very option heavy world.

I've made some projects I'm really please with on digital so I'm not bashing it. If I was a pro I'd shoot digital, if I had a task I'd shoot digital and if I needed AF I'd use digital, but as someone who wants to enjoy the experience I get more out of film. So I don't think it's nostalgia it's a format, a canvas, a way of expressing yourself and artists are drawn to what suits their desires. That's the whole point. It's utterly nonsensical trying to convince someone the same experience can be had on both. That can only be true of particular aspects of film and digital Ms. Those differences are narrowing but they're only narrowing to the most important aspects that can't be simulated without having to put yourself in conflict with the nature of the format.

[Torontoamateur]

Velvia 50 rules !!!

[david strachan]

On 7/25/2020 at 6:20 AM, rossawilson1 said:

digital, if I had a task I'd shoot digital and if I needed AF I'd use digital, but as someone who wants to enjoy the experience I get more out of film. So I don't think it's nostalgia it's a format, a canvas, a way of expressing yourself and artists are drawn to what suits their desires. That's the whole point. It's utterly nonsensical trying to convince someone the same experience can be had on both. That can only be true of particular aspects of film and digital Ms. Those differences are narrowing but they're only narrowing to the most important aspects that can't be simulated without having to put yourself in conflict with the nature of the format.

I like both film and digital and don't really have a problem as to justifying.  Some like to use watercolours and others acrylics...🙃.

 

My various format cameras from 4x5, to medium format and several camera types...well i love to use them all.

 

I hope the differences remain, and don't converge.

...

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[alwinvrm]

On 7/24/2020 at 10:50 PM, rossawilson1 said:

For me it's not nostalgia it's the process and the look of film that I enjoy. You can get a similar process with an M10-D but knowing your film's colours, having only 36 shots, not snapping away and having to think a little more or raise your standards per shot and then the fact you just can not look at them for a few days at least, yeah digital doesn't do that. People suggest simulating film by not looking at your pics etc but now you're fighting yourself and you're being illogical and your in conflict with yourself when really you should just be concentrating on the next photo or location etc. That's what film allows you to do, it stops you judging yourself in the middle of a shoot. Not always a bad thing but it is really nice to have fewer options in a very option heavy world.

I've made some projects I'm really please with on digital so I'm not bashing it. If I was a pro I'd shoot digital, if I had a task I'd shoot digital and if I needed AF I'd use digital, but as someone who wants to enjoy the experience I get more out of film. So I don't think it's nostalgia it's a format, a canvas, a way of expressing yourself and artists are drawn to what suits their desires. That's the whole point. It's utterly nonsensical trying to convince someone the same experience can be had on both. That can only be true of particular aspects of film and digital Ms. Those differences are narrowing but they're only narrowing to the most important aspects that can't be simulated without having to put yourself in conflict with the nature of the format.

I totally agree with what you are saying, but I fail to fully understand why it is the case. A camera is a camera and it takes picture, whether digital or analogue. I find it hard to believe that I can't work with a digital camera as if it were an analogue camera. It appears though that I need the involvement (and enjoyment) required by manual settings, etc. to get into analogue mode myself and I accept that. 

Anyway, this post started with soul searching about a digital Leica, and now reached the point where I bought a 28mm for my M6/M2 and I am back into analogue. It has nothing to do with justification, just exploring feelings and ways of working that I expected to be something of my past, not my future.

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by alwinvrm

[alwinvrm]

BTW, weird experience when checking the pics of my first outing in a decade with the M6/35mm Sum. I wanted to take this shot of a man and a woman having a nice conversation and then there was this brief moment and I pushed the shutter. The picture looks unexpectedly  grim, yet I am not sure whether the reality was as grim as this.

The negatives were sadly somewhat butchered, cause my youngest son was wondering what was in the little black container in the kitchen upstairs.

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited August 11, 2020 by alwinvrm