A fast 35mm partner for my ZM 2.8/35

[otto.f]

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12 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

I'm  not sure f2 is going to make a lot of difference from f2.8.

Not for the price around 1000 and with the brands OP mentions indeed. In fact it’s an impossible wish which can only lead to disappointment. If you have an M10 and you want a faster lens just for the speed and not for selective focus per se, I wonder if this is about needing a lens or needing more training in photographic competence. Especially if 90% is ok. Or it’s just GAS. 

Edited June 26, 2020 by otto.f

[Dennis]

10 hours ago, docmarten said:

My recommendation for a fast non origin Leica-lens: VL 40mm/1,2

I was reading a studying more about this lens. Very interesting. A nice combinations between 35 and 50. Now I know that it brings 50mm frame lines and I can't avoid this. No problem. Ignore please my previous question. You shoot with the all 50 frame lines (which I prefer because is more visible on a 0.73 VF) knowing that you image will provide more scene.

I also have read that it has 50cm minimum focus distance, which is awesome. Then I read this: "The split-image rangefinder mechanism doesn’t click in until 70cm, which is the closest focusing distance of most modern Leica lenses. If you turn the focus ring to the end stop, at 50cm, the rangefinder isn’t working, and this can be disconcerting at first. However, you soon get used to it."

What does it mean? I can't focus closer than 70cm? 🤔

[lct]

3 minutes ago, Dennis said:

What does it mean? I can't focus closer than 70cm?

It can with EVF but not with the RF. 

[Dennis]

1 minute ago, lct said:

It can with EVF but not with the RF. 

Thanks. I always learn a lot here, I didn't know it. So, using the OVF, what's happening between 50 and 70cm? Can't I move the focus ring in the 50-70 range or yes I can, but it doesn't show any changes on the focus patch? 

[lct]

Yes you can but the focus patch won't move below 0.7m that's all. 

[Simone_DF]

4 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

It is discontinued because it was design failure. Not selling well. Of course it is easy to find. BH will sit on remaining stock for some time, because it is not popular lens. They dropped price well bellow 700 USD of it now, to get rid of them ASAP.

can you elaborate? Sample pictures and reviews are great

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/voigtlander-ultron-11-7-35-mm-review/

I think the main issue was that it was sitting awkwardly in between too many options: 1.2, 1.4, 2.0 + the Zeiss and Leica options

[Harpomatic]

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6 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

And those 1.7 lenses were made for masochists or those who have limited sensitivity in fingers pads. Sharp, little edges, fast rotation resistant focus dumping. Hood is lousy, btw. self unscrews. 

 

6 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

It is discontinued because it was design failure. Not selling well. Of course it is easy to find. BH will sit on remaining stock for some time, because it is not popular lens. They dropped price well bellow 700 USD of it now, to get rid of them ASAP.

I have the impression that Ko.Fe. might not be that keen on the Ultron 1.7! 🤣🤣

I have to agree that it baffles me that CV chose such a design for the Ultron 1.7 and Nokton 1.5, ergonomics are not great. But many people love those lenses and with reason, optically they are both punching way above their weight. I have had and used both and enjoyed using them for the size and quality of the output. Well built as well, but the ring is not the most comfortable. If the ring doesn’t bother you they are and unbeatable pair of modern, quality lenses. 
 

I am not a fan of the tab myself, I vastly prefer knurled/ribbed focusing rings and built my kit purposefully to avoid lens tabs. To each his own I guess.

Do check that Ultron 1.7 out, it’s worth a try: the images will speak for themselves.

7 hours ago, Dennis said:

Do you think that the CV Ultron f/2 and the 2.8/35 ZM has a similar IQ?

I haven’t used either but from reviews and opinions that seems to be the case, including a similar level of contrast. And apparently the Summicron Asph doesn’t have much at all over the Ultron F2.

To me you have three options with your budget:

1: sell the Biogon, get the Ultron F2 as your only 35 and simplify your life (that would be my choice in your shoes)

2: Ultron 1.7, medium size, high image quality and 1.5 stops difference, easy enough to have as only lens for travel

3: Nokton 1.2 III: high quality imaging, 2.5 stops difference (really significant) but bigger, a bit big for a whole trip.

If you still want a tab...the Ultron F2 has a lever, and I hear good things about the TT Artisan 35 1.4, which seems to be just a little bigger than the Summilux 35 1.4 FLE.

Hope it helps!

[Ko.Fe.]

2 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

can you elaborate? Sample pictures and reviews are great

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/voigtlander-ultron-11-7-35-mm-review/

I think the main issue was that it was sitting awkwardly in between too many options: 1.2, 1.4, 2.0 + the Zeiss and Leica options

I elaborated in this thread already. Sharp, sado-mazo edges on focus ring, which is stiff dumped against fast rotation, self unscrewing hood and possible purple fringing w/o on digital Leica.

But maybe I'm terribly wrong and it was all particular copy variation.

[Dennis]

4 minutes ago, Harpomatic said:

If the ring doesn’t bother you they are and unbeatable pair of modern, quality lenses. 

Do check that Ultron 1.7 out, it’s worth a try: the images will speak for themselves.

Yes, I guess it's very important before to buy. It could be game changer, in a bad way 😂 But I'm happily reading here that is has a modern and great IQ

6 minutes ago, Harpomatic said:

1: sell the Biogon, get the Ultron F2 as your only 35 and simplify your life (that would be my choice in your shoes)

2: Ultron 1.7, medium size, high image quality and 1.5 stops difference, easy enough to have as only lens for travel

3: Nokton 1.2 III: high quality imaging, 2.5 stops difference (really significant) but bigger, a bit big for a whole trip.

Hahaha. I like all your three options 🙂 Option 1 makes sense because I could use just one 35 and that's it. One extra stop "could" be enough. 
Option 3 it's big, I know. But apart its high IQ that everyone says about, it really intrigues me the 40 FL that I didn't consider it before. So once I need an ultra-fast lens, to use a 40 can be very interesting. And it's literally another FL.

I never saw or tried any of these lenses, that's why I ask a lot. I'm excited to enter in a photo-store and test a few ones. Once it will be the time to travel abroad, it will be my time. Before that, you are my inspiration guys!

 

[Harpomatic]

11 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

self unscrewing hood

I don’t know about that because I never used that hood, like the same design hood on the Nokton 1.5: why on earth do you finally include a hood with the lens and make is so wide and solid? It blocks the hell out of the viewfinder! Why not make it ventilated? I used a cheap eBay ventilated one on it with no problems at all, and no unscrewing by itself. That is, I only used it when it rained, otherwise it rarely needs a hood. The Ultron 1.7 good for flare resistance.

[giannis]

On 6/26/2020 at 2:35 AM, Dennis said:

 

Hi guys

I talked before on this forum about my desire to switch entirely to the M-system for my work. I love to use my M10 for street photography, pictures of my family, travels, architecture, and daily life. And I would like to use it also for my storytelling work. I really believe it could be a perfect fit for me. I'm still studying the pros and cons, logistics, etc. But I do have a clear image in my mind of what I would love to do and the tools I would need. So here, I'm asking you for your valuable feedback about some 35mm options. At the moment, I have the 2.8/35 ZM Biogon. The point is that 90% of the times, f/2.8 is fast enough, because the M10 has excellent performance at high ISO. But sometimes I need more, and I underexpose a couple of stops wishing than in PP I can recovery well the scene. I shoot almost 100% available light for my work, and I would love to keep doing it. But I would like to add an affordable 35 companion for my Zeiss. A fast lens. Let's say that during an event, I would shoot most with the 35 ZM. Only when I need a faster aperture because the very low light, or when I want a shallow DOP for an artistic effect, I would choose the other 35. 

For what I have found around the web, and reading your feedbacks here, these are my options in no particular order:

1. Voigtlander Nokton 35mm f/1.2 Aspherical III - $1,050
2. Voigtlander Ultron 35mm f/1.7 Aspherical - $670
3. Voigtlander Nokton Classic 35mm f/1.4 II MC - $600
4. Voigtlander Ultron 35mm f/2 Aspherical - $700
5. TTArtisan 35mm f/1.4 - $450

I can say that with f/2 should be fine. But if it's faster, of course, better. My requirements:

• I'm not a pixel peeper, but I do like sharp modern lenses. I don't want to buy a lens that wide open is very soft, it doesn't make sense for me. I can live with a small vignette or slight color shift, but not soft glow images, please. Especially if the primary purpose of the new 35 lenses it to shoot wider than f/2.8. Being the 35 FL essential for me, to tell stories, it would be great to have a second one as back up. And if it performs well after 2.8 (obviously) it is more than welcome. It could be also the first option for travels, who knows.
• I'm don't care about size and weight because I'll not use it all day long. Small and light is always better, but the priority is IQ
• I want to buy a NEW lens, not used. My budget is $1,050, Max
• This is not mandatory, but it would be great. I would love to DIY 6-bit coding the lens if the flange allows me to do it. If I can't, no problem.

You have these lenses, you tried them, you know the limitations and the IQ rendering. According to my needs, which lens you think is your favorite option for me?

Thank you in advance for your help.

 

Some comments on your options:

2. Ultron 35mm f/1.7. This is a fantastic lens with regards to modern performance: sharp and contrasty from wide open across the frame, excellent flare resistance, no field curvature, virtually non-existent distortion, and the cherry on top is it has great bokeh. It is a very serious contender to the f/2 Biogon, if not better, and at the price it sells it's a great deal. It would make for a great choice if it were your *only* 35mm lens. 

3. Nokton Classic. Good lens, but the priority is towards speed while keeping the size small, not about absolute image quality. Since you have a great compact lens already, I don't see the reason why you should go for compactness at the expense of quality in the fast lens that you'll use less often. And you mention size is not an issue for you.

 

All in all, I think a good option for you would be the f/1.2 Nokton. It has modern rendering and performance, is really fast (over two stops faster than your Biogon, 1 stop faster than the Ultron), and sacrifices size to achieve that instead of image quality. Not that it's huge, its size and weight were reduced compared to previous versions. Makes for a really good environmental portrait lens in available light. It's a slightly less sharp/constrasty than the f/1.7 Ultron at the same aperture, not sure if this is of practical relevance though, especially compared to 1 stop of speed and subject isolation it can achieve, which will have a greater impact in your photos that slightly more or less sharpness.

If you care about the "best", most clinical performance (sharpness, contrast, flare resistance), the f/1.7 Ultron is a great deal and the best on your list. For absolute speed with very small sacrifices in sharpness, the f/1.2 Nokton.

The f/1.4 Distagon is not within your budget but is the only one with, say, the performance of the f/1.7 Ultron at f/1.4.

 

[giannis]

On 6/26/2020 at 7:39 AM, Dennis said:

Does the two Ultron (f/2 and f/1.7) perform very similar? Cause I like the focus ring of the 1.7, and an half stop could be helpful 

 

The f/1.7 is the same or better in every regard, other than size (mostly length). It's a more complex optical formula, that performs better. I don't know where you find your prices (maybe those are deal prices), but in the original listed prices the f/1.7 is slightly more expensive.

[Simone_DF]

14 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

I elaborated in this thread already. Sharp, sado-mazo edges on focus ring, which is stiff dumped against fast rotation, self unscrewing hood and possible purple fringing w/o on digital Leica.

But maybe I'm terribly wrong and it was all particular copy variation.

Maybe your copy was bad. Other people report good haptics / focus ring

[Dennis]

1 hour ago, giannis said:

If you care about the "best", most clinical performance (sharpness, contrast, flare resistance), the f/1.7 Ultron is a great deal and the best on your list. For absolute speed with very small sacrifices in sharpness, the f/1.2 Nokton.

Thank you Giannis, it's a great resume point. Ultron for the best performance, with medium size. Nokton 1.2 for a better speed, and a small IQ sacrifice. Option 1 for my*only* 35mm lens. I'm understanding that the Ultron 1.7 performs better than the Ultron 2. Got it.

Now, after a few members mentioned it, I have the buzz of the CV 40 1.2 Asph. I've read about and it performs great. I don't care of the lack of 40mm frame lines, I can perfectly deal with it. It's super fast (as the 35 Nokton 1.2) but slightly better in size and weight (60x43 VS 60x50 ... 315gr vs 332). It's also costs $200 less. What's your opinion about it?

1 hour ago, giannis said:

I don't know where you find your prices (maybe those are deal prices), but in the original listed prices the f/1.7 is slightly more expensive.

There is an Instant save on BH

• Nokton 1.2 III - $1,050 (no disocunt)
• Ultron 1.7 - $809 - $669
• Nokton 40 1.2 - $899 - $799
• Ultron 2 Apsh - $799 - $699

[giannis]

3 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Ultron for the best performance, with medium size. Nokton 1.2 for a better speed, and a small IQ sacrifice. Option 1 for my*only* 35mm lens. I'm understanding that the Ultron 1.7 performs better than the Ultron 2. Got it.

Yup exactly.

3 minutes ago, Dennis said:

What's your opinion about it?

It's a very good lens, and personally I like 40mm, I find it a great walkaround focal length. I find the perspective of 40mm the most natural, if you think about it the diagonal of a 35mm frame is roughly 43mm, which is closer to 40mm than 50mm.

[Ko.Fe.]

40 1.2 is most compact modern FF I'm aware of. The only big difference from Leica lenses VM lenses have is in bokeh. 

VM 40 1.2 or VM 35 f2 you'll have more chances to have nervous bokeh. But VM f1.7 series seems to be exclusion from it. 

I would go with wider lens for better DOF instead of 35 or 40. 40 gives even less DOF @f1.2. 

VM 21 1.8 is also discounted at BH and it is known to be good on digital Leica.

[Dennis]

10 minutes ago, giannis said:

It's a very good lens, and personally I like 40mm, I find it a great walkaround focal length. I find the perspective of 40mm the most natural, if you think about it the diagonal of a 35mm frame is roughly 43mm, which is closer to 40mm than 50mm.

My post was about to find a fast (or super fast) 35mm lens as a companion of my 35 Biogon 2.8. And a 40mm FL is not so different than a 35. But if it's 1.2 and it performs very well, even better than the 35 1.2, costing $200 less and smaller size... It really makes me think of a possible first choice. It makes click in my mind also that having a 35 2.8 and a 50 2.0, when I need a super-fast lens, I use an FL in between. Does it make sense?

10 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

I would go with wider lens for better DOF instead of 35 or 40

Thank you Ko.Fe. but I I don't need it. 35 is perfect, 40 is more than enough for what I would need. 

 

[Dennis]

If someone around here, have some direct feedbacks about the new Voigtlander 40mm 1.2 Aspherical, posting some photos or links, that would be awesome 🙏

 

[Jeff S]

13 minutes ago, Dennis said:

If someone around here, have some direct feedbacks about the new Voigtlander 40mm 1.2 Aspherical, posting some photos or links, that would be awesome 🙏

 

 

Jeff

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[Jeff S]

I take Steve with a grain of salt, but nonetheless...

https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2018/02/28/the-leica-m10-and-voigtlander-40-f-1-2-what-a-combo/

Jeff