charlesphoto99 Posted September 27, 2007 Share #441 Posted September 27, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) The biggest problem I see with the R model is availibility of lenses. No matter what leica does, I, as a pro user just wouldn't be able to afford the system - M is already a stretch to justify. Clients couldn't really care less - they just want the shot and once the ink hits the paper you'll be pretty hard pressed to tell the difference between an R and a Canon, Nikon, etc. as long as the post-processing was done correctly. And if the digital R has any of the same reliability issues the initial M8 had it's just going to tank. There's not enough R users out there to stick it out and make it a hit like the M series. Leica should also start up a rental program with major retailers in their bigger markets. If I need a 14mm and a 300 2.8 and an 85 1.4 for the day, I don't need to take out a second mortgage on the house I just go down and rent them for a $100 and often pass that on to the client. To me slrs are workhorses and all about the extremes of looks (and sometimes speed of working) that one can't get with an M style camera. Who in the hell can afford an R 300 2.8??? Esp if only using on the rare occasions. I had an R8 for a short while (just because - you know how it is) but couldn't hardly afford any lenses for it and there were none to rent. So it became a pretty useless system for me and when I sold it took a hit (even though I'd also bought it used). Leica had better pull this one off perfectly or, in my opinion, not even bother and stick to improving the M line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 27, 2007 Posted September 27, 2007 Hi charlesphoto99, Take a look here Is R10 or a brand new Digital-R coming ?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
hankg Posted September 27, 2007 Share #442 Posted September 27, 2007 The biggest problem I see with the R model is availibility of lenses. ...... Leica should also start up a rental program with major retailers in their bigger markets. If I need a 14mm and a 300 2.8 and an 85 1.4 for the day, I don't need to take out a second mortgage on the house I just go down and rent them for a $100 and often pass that on to the client. To me slrs are workhorses and all about the extremes of looks (and sometimes speed of working) that one can't get with an M style camera. Who in the hell can afford an R 300 2.8??? Esp if only using on the rare occasions. I had an R8 for a short while (just because - you know how it is) but couldn't hardly afford any lenses for it and there were none to rent. So it became a pretty useless system for me and when I sold it took a hit (even though I'd also bought it used). Leica had better pull this one off perfectly or, in my opinion, not even bother and stick to improving the M line. A rental program in the major markets would be a great idea especially if they could combine it with a pro service program. If they get the service centers in the US and Europe staffed properly they could run it from there and keep the lenses up to spec between rentals and make bodies available when service is needed. Considering how overwhelmed they are now in service though that's a long way off. It would really make getting on board with the system less of a risk. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted September 27, 2007 Share #443 Posted September 27, 2007 A rental program in the major markets would be a great idea especially if they could combine it with a pro service program. If they get the service centers in the US and Europe staffed properly they could run it from there and keep the lenses up to spec between rentals and make bodies available when service is needed. Considering how overwhelmed they are now in service though that's a long way off. It would really make getting on board with the system less of a risk. As pro Leica has made equipment available to me through the years, either for testing or for my own use. There is a equipement loan service (you'd have to check the specifics) and Professional Service available through Leica Camera USA, although one has to apply for it. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted September 27, 2007 Share #444 Posted September 27, 2007 As pro Leica has made equipment available to me through the years, either for testing or for my own use. There is a equipement loan service (you'd have to check the specifics) and Professional Service available through Leica Camera USA, although one has to apply for it. Cheers, Yeah, but not as anywhere near as simple as renting from your local house. When the job gets postponed at the last minute, you find in the middle of the shoot you really need a macro lens (for example) and send off your assistant and $25 and 30 minutes later you've got it. I'm sorry, but Canons and Nikons are really hard to beat when you factor in this aspect of it. R lenses are just so dang expensive, and you're not even getting the form/function factor of the M lenses (ie one can carry six M lenses in the place it would carry two slr lenses) that attracts one to their rangefinders despite the price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EH21 Posted September 27, 2007 Share #445 Posted September 27, 2007 Yeah, but not as anywhere near as simple as renting from your local house..... (stuff deleted)..... I'm sorry, but Canons and Nikons are really hard to beat when you factor in this aspect of it. R lenses are just so dang expensive.... Yes, I agree and wish that some rental houses in San Francisco had some Leica gear available. I have actually been renting some of my leica gear to other local photographers from time to time so I know the need is there. But I disagree with you that R glass is more expensive than Canon. You can buy tons of Leica R lenses for sale on the used market at very reasonable prices. As an example take a look at a used 80 lux (latest version with ROM) which is typically the same price as a used 85mm f/1.2 canon or less. How about a 50mm summicron for like $250? Can you even find a canon equal to that? Sure if you have to buy new then the prices are higher, but the markets are full of used glass which is often pristine since many leica users shot very little. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted September 27, 2007 Share #446 Posted September 27, 2007 Yes, I agree and wish that some rental houses in San Francisco had some Leica gear available. I have actually been renting some of my leica gear to other local photographers from time to time so I know the need is there. But I disagree with you that R glass is more expensive than Canon. You can buy tons of Leica R lenses for sale on the used market at very reasonable prices. As an example take a look at a used 80 lux (latest version with ROM) which is typically the same price as a used 85mm f/1.2 canon or less. How about a 50mm summicron for like $250? Can you even find a canon equal to that? Sure if you have to buy new then the prices are higher, but the markets are full of used glass which is often pristine since many leica users shot very little. R glass isn't more expensive if you want to buy used and stick to the real basics. But overall I find it to be a somewhat antiquated system when compared to Nikon and Canon. And if I'm to invest $5-7K in a body, I want access to a modern system. Af - never use it. Until, that is, I had a shoot where I had to ride on the back of a motorbike and shoot a motorcycle messenger through London's Soho. I also eschewed zooms for primes, but looking back wish I'd had a basic 24-70 2.8 in that case (I was shooting Canon L primes). And I have to say I've always been really happy with the results from my Nikon 50mm 1.8 AIS that I picked up mint for $49. Yes, I love the feel and build of the R line but it's all relative to what one is trying to accomplish. M's are unique in form and function which is why Leica 's done so well with them. Same can't really be said of their slrs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angora Posted September 28, 2007 Share #447 Posted September 28, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Higher high ISO performance should be more a priority for the M which is Leica's reportage camera. The R should focus on absolute image quality and dynamic range. Qualities where the medium format backs are king. That does not mean the most pixels just the best quality pixels. For me cleanliness in high ISO are part of the absolute image quality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapp Posted September 28, 2007 Share #448 Posted September 28, 2007 The biggest problem I see with the R model is availibility of lenses. No matter what leica does, I, as a pro user just wouldn't be able to afford the system - M is already a stretch to justify. Clients couldn't really care less - they just want the shot and once the ink hits the paper you'll be pretty hard pressed to tell the difference between an R and a Canon, Nikon, etc. as long as the post-processing was done correctly. And if the digital R has any of the same reliability issues the initial M8 had it's just going to tank. There's not enough R users out there to stick it out and make it a hit like the M series. Leica should also start up a rental program with major retailers in their bigger markets. If I need a 14mm and a 300 2.8 and an 85 1.4 for the day, I don't need to take out a second mortgage on the house I just go down and rent them for a $100 and often pass that on to the client. To me slrs are workhorses and all about the extremes of looks (and sometimes speed of working) that one can't get with an M style camera. Who in the hell can afford an R 300 2.8??? Esp if only using on the rare occasions. I had an R8 for a short while (just because - you know how it is) but couldn't hardly afford any lenses for it and there were none to rent. So it became a pretty useless system for me and when I sold it took a hit (even though I'd also bought it used). Leica had better pull this one off perfectly or, in my opinion, not even bother and stick to improving the M line. Your argumentation is mostly supported by cost arguments. I know that quirt often professionals work with lower cost equipment than amateurs, but still the difference in cost between a Canon and a Leica outfit should be no drawback for professional use. If it is and if your clients will not see or appreciate certain differences or if Leica imagery and feeling of mechanical accuracy is not worth the extra cost to you, well, in that case Leica is not for you. Business wise Canon and Nikon offer enough imaging power for less cost that is a fact. For really superior image quality you need a decent digital medium format which will be completely out of range. Renting a lens for a day sounds nice, but a day will usually become a week including shipping the lens back and forth unless you live in a big city with a walk in rental store. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted September 28, 2007 Share #449 Posted September 28, 2007 R glass isn't more expensive if you want to buy used and stick to the real basics. But overall I find it to be a somewhat antiquated system when compared to Nikon and Canon. And if I'm to invest $5-7K in a body, I want access to a modern system. Af - never use it. Until, that is, I had a shoot where I had to ride on the back of a motorbike and shoot a motorcycle messenger through London's Soho. I also eschewed zooms for primes, but looking back wish I'd had a basic 24-70 2.8 in that case (I was shooting Canon L primes). And I have to say I've always been really happy with the results from my Nikon 50mm 1.8 AIS that I picked up mint for $49. Yes, I love the feel and build of the R line but it's all relative to what one is trying to accomplish. M's are unique in form and function which is why Leica 's done so well with them. Same can't really be said of their slrs. Clearly you should be sticking to Nikon or Canon. They seem to correspond to your needs better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 28, 2007 Share #450 Posted September 28, 2007 Your argumentation is mostly supported by cost arguments. I know that quirt often professionals work with lower cost equipment than amateurs, but still the difference in cost between a Canon and a Leica outfit should be no drawback for professional use... Well it is cost, performance, and versatility that has me using Canon. A manual focus 70-180 2.8 for the Leica is $7195. That is a high price to try to justify when a $1700 Canon lens is excellent and has AF and IS. (The non IS Canon 70-200 2.8 is only about $1140.) Other Leica R lenses - 15mm 2.8 is $7795, 35 1.4 is $3995, a 28-90 2.8-4.5 is $4195. And on and on... For $7069 (and often much less when Canon has rebates for multiple lens purchases) one could buy a Canon 70-200 2.8IS - $1700, 24 TSE-$1100, 24-105 IS $1059, 16-35 2.8 II - $1450 and 85mm f 1.2 - $1760. I don't see "inexpensive" used lenses as much of an argument because if Leica comes out with a compelling digital R camera, those lenses will be quickly gobbled up and their prices will increase. Or else the camera may have a new line of lenses for it. (Certainly if it has AF.) And if those are all in the $4,000 to $7,000 range that will be a problem. And while medium format systems can make "better" quality images under some circumstances, the ease of use, speed, and versatility of 35mm systems often give them an edge in my book. (I've owned Hassleblad, Rollei 6006, plus Linhof MF systems over the past 35 years.) Now that the quality of 35mm digital is so good, I can't see needing MF digital for my work. I have a good friend who bought an MF digital system and then got rid of it when he decided that it really couldn't keep up with the way he was used to working. Besides, if MF is much better, how is that an argument for using Leicas? Despite all I've seen written here about the wants and needs of current R users, I can't see a digital R system having much success unless it can compete against Canon and Nikon in all aspects of image quality, versatility, and price. I can see Leica trying to get a few hundred dollars premium for a lens but what they are charging is way over the top for most shooters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted September 28, 2007 Share #451 Posted September 28, 2007 Clearly you should be sticking to Nikon or Canon. They seem to correspond to your needs better. Hey, I would LOVE to shoot Leica R over Nikon or Canon. It fits who I am much better. But as Alan points out an R 70-180 is over $7K! And not a rental in sight. I currently shoot a Nikon dslr and I own very few lenses for it (a few old manuals) so I choose to rent af lenses and invested my money elsewhere (Leica M8/M7 and MF film cameras and an Imacon). On occasion I will also rent and/or borrow a Canon 1dsMkII as well. I would do the same for Leica slr digital if it was available but it's not. If I could own a $3-5K Leica dslr body and a couple of basic workhorse lenses for under $8k and then rent the rest when needed I would. But in real world usage the Canons and Nikons work really really well. And at the end of the day that's what counts, not MTF charts. And I can pick up used lenses at a great price almost anytime and anywhere. Same can't really be said of Leica. And of course that's a amtter of supply and demand, a great part of which we all know hinges on cost. Leica, hopefully, must realise that. The sultan of Brunei is not going to float the company, no matter how many gold Ms they make. I think that's why the new line of Summarits. Hopefully we'll see more of that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted September 28, 2007 Share #452 Posted September 28, 2007 Leica had the Test Drive rental program in place for dealers in the US for the last two years. The flood of "demo" gear earlier in the year came from that, as the prgram came to a close. We still rent Leica gear regardless. Perhaps Miami doesn't qulaify as a major market, though. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted September 29, 2007 Share #453 Posted September 29, 2007 Hey, I would LOVE to shoot Leica R over Nikon or Canon. It fits who I am much better. But as Alan points out an R 70-180 is over $7K! And not a rental in sight. I currently shoot a Nikon dslr and I own very few lenses for it (a few old manuals) so I choose to rent af lenses and invested my money elsewhere (Leica M8/M7 and MF film cameras and an Imacon). On occasion I will also rent and/or borrow a Canon 1dsMkII as well. I would do the same for Leica slr digital if it was available but it's not. If I could own a $3-5K Leica dslr body and a couple of basic workhorse lenses for under $8k and then rent the rest when needed I would. But in real world usage the Canons and Nikons work really really well. And at the end of the day that's what counts, not MTF charts. And I can pick up used lenses at a great price almost anytime and anywhere. Same can't really be said of Leica. And of course that's a amtter of supply and demand, a great part of which we all know hinges on cost. Leica, hopefully, must realise that. The sultan of Brunei is not going to float the company, no matter how many gold Ms they make. I think that's why the new line of Summarits. Hopefully we'll see more of that. I realise that lens choices are truly personal but frankly even I would not buy the 70-180 it's just a bit much! However you can find a 180mm f/2 Apo for around $4500 which is a reasonnable price for that lens, the same can be said about the 280 f/4 Apo. There are indeed some bargains on the second hand market (like for the previous lenses), like the 180 f3.4 Apo, the 135 f/2.8 , the 90 f/2 non-apo and the 50f/2 as well as the 35 f/2. But I hear you about the Sultan of Brunei but that was several management changes ago. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmb_ Posted September 29, 2007 Share #454 Posted September 29, 2007 I think we will see some newly designed R lenses at lower price points when the R10 is introduced. Steven K. Lee indicated as much in the LFI interview and when the M8 was released there came the 28/2.8 which was not a small fortune. Now the Summarits are coming for the M, also much more modestly priced than the rest of the line. This is most likely a strategy to entice new users (or converts) without having to break the bank. I expect to see something similar for the R. The overall price is still high, however, if buying into a Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted September 29, 2007 Share #455 Posted September 29, 2007 If I was mr. lee for one day, and was ready to start production of the r10, I would offer rental houses in the major markets a fleet deal..like the car guys do.. make them an offer they can't say no to.. Professionals want to use this ezuipment but it has to be easier to come by than the holy grail.. second point is photographers have to be mindfull of not giving away pictures so we can afford the best equipment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
telyt Posted September 29, 2007 Share #456 Posted September 29, 2007 second point is photographers have to be mindfull of not giving away pictures so we can afford the best equipment. That cat is out of the bag and we have only ourselves to blame. The automated features many of us have been saying we need are now available to millions so there are now uncountable billions of photos clamoring for their 15 minutes of fame. Supply and demand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted September 29, 2007 Share #457 Posted September 29, 2007 That cat is out of the bag and we have only ourselves to blame. The automated features many of us have been saying we need are now available to millions so there are now uncountable billions of photos clamoring for their 15 minutes of fame. Supply and demand. doug, my point is that yes, as a professional I accept that I have a role to ensure that I can still make a living from this. There are other forces at work, the digial revolution, stock photo monopolies, and yes the automation of the camera. I am sure when kodak brought out the brownie, the professionals felt the effects.. It is off topic, but I feel what we do with our photos and how we sell them is as important as the equipment being made and whether or not it has ttl or autofocus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
telyt Posted September 29, 2007 Share #458 Posted September 29, 2007 doug, my point is that yes, as a professional I accept that I have a role to ensure that I can still make a living from this. Paul, I think it's beyond our control now. Many if not most photo buyers will find that among the tens or hundreds of thousands of amateurs who, thanks to automation, can now make technically adequate photos there are plenty for whom seeing their name in print is enough compensation. This weakens the market for all of us. Unless we are among the rare photographic talents who can make uniquely stunning photos regardless of the tool's capabilities, new automated features provide an advantage only until the technology is available to the broader market, a few months at best. I think it far better to develop a unique photographic vision that can be applied to whatever tool is used than to rely on a particular tool or technology. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted September 30, 2007 Share #459 Posted September 30, 2007 I'm not a professional photographer and have never sold one single print ... I do give away prints to friends free of charge. LOL In my very humble opinion, the tougher situation in print market is largely due to the popularity of digital cameras and internet, people are changing their ways to "share" and "view" pictures ... and the mass public's deteriorating bad taste, kids, even some grownups, are no longer interested in any printed matters, they prefer to waste time on blogs full of nonsense and hang around places such as myspace, facebook ... Linden dollars are probably more appreciated than the world's hardest currencies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted September 30, 2007 Share #460 Posted September 30, 2007 I'm not a professional photographer and have never sold one single print ... I do give away prints to friends free of charge. LOL As you should, unless that friend is using it as a commercial work.. It is a whole other world..the shot might be the same but once commerce enters, it is a new ball game..and the stakes are high for guys who have house payments and college for the kiddies to deal with..I am preaching to the choir for those here that have been working in this field for awhile but my message is for the young upstarts and those dabbling in the commercial world part time.. ( got a friend who is a marketing director of xyz and he wants some shots for his companies brochure,) There has been a dumbing down of what is usable in the commercial world and the ability for the masses to produce work that is up to this lowered standard has risen..recipe for deflated quality and fees. I agree with doug about honing your craft to set yourself apart, and for me that is why the interest in leica..I do feel like it gives me some edge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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