Miami is remembering George Floyd

[fotografr]

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57 minutes ago, james.liam said:

Small minority? Sorry but that’s just not true. I challenge you to present the statistics. Too many are not living up to their greatest potential But the best universities have a high matriculation rates for students of black, Asian, and Hispanic backgrounds. 
you’re all painting a picture than it is. The ubiquity if the violence has distorted perceptions. and please don’t use the “white privilege” canard. It’s as racist as looking at anyone who speak Spanish as “Latin” or who appear of African descent simply as “black”. Life is nuanced and resorting to these labels makes you no better than a bigot who can only see “the Other” when confronted with differences. 

I disagree with everything you just wrote but I'm not going to pursue this any further for the sake of maintaining decorum here. You came dangerously close in your last few sentences to calling me a bigot and racist which is way out of bounds and carrying this any further is not going to end well.

[james.liam]

1 hour ago, fotografr said:

I disagree with everything you just wrote but I'm not going to pursue this any further for the sake of maintaining decorum here. You came dangerously close in your last few sentences to calling me a bigot and racist which is way out of bounds and carrying this any further is not going to end well.

The last few sentences were NOT directed toward you. I ought to have used "one" rather than the collective "you". Disagree, that's fine. I think no less of you for disagreeing with me. Decorum maintained.

Edited June 5, 2020 by james.liam

[james.liam]

2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

So, where are these statistics which refute everything else as generalisations and political agenda?  You say that none of what has been posted is reliable. Provide us with factual statistics which support your proposition. 

Percentage of black students at university in 2016: 14%

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=98

Percentage of citizens of African descent: 13.4%

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/IPE120218

 

Which is not to say that African Americans have a higher unemployment rates, higher #'s below the poverty level. But one of the great tragedies of the Wuhan coronavirus (at present, too many to count) just before it arrived, was that employment rates for black Americans had never been higher in all of US history.

[IkarusJohn]

Interesting, but doesn’t address prison populations, police brutality, life expectancy or other indicators relating to discrimination and poverty ...

They’re not protesting education rates.

[james.liam]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

Interesting, but doesn’t address prison populations, police brutality, life expectancy or other indicators relating to discrimination and poverty ...

They’re not protesting education rates.

Prison population: too great a tendency to lock up minor drug players. Mandatory sentencing is also to blame. Broken families, lack of role models and parental supervision among the young in inner cities. 
 

police brutality: not enough screening for the psychopaths who join just to get a gun and dominion over others. 
 

life expectancy: really complicated. Genetics, diet, environment, devastating black-on-black violence. Probably another dozen other factors. 

[IkarusJohn]

Quote

Minority access to decent rather than degraded education, universal rather than elite access to reasonable health care, a conception of law and order that seeks to ensure just outcomes rather than protecting white privilege, and a concerted war on poverty rather than a war against the poor are the real solutions.

Extract from an interesting letter in the NYTimes from Philip Alston, professor of law at NYU.

 

[james.liam]

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1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

Extract from an interesting letter in the NYTimes from Philip Alston, professor of law at NYU.

 

So?

Education disparities are also multi-factorial. Funding varies by community Taxes rather than uniformly, lack of parental involvement in the inner cities (quite the opposite for charter schools that involve minority parents in the day to day schoolwork). In a multi-ethnic place like the US, different immigrant cultures value education to unequal degrees. Just a fact but this can be encouraged to change. 
The lawyer doesn’t know much about healthcare; as access is there, as well as quality. Cultural issues often impede compliance with care (this was the most exasperating part of working in a university clinic setting in East Harlem).

And again, ‘white privilege’ whatever that truly means. It is as enlightened  as just seeing “black or brown” rather than individuals with a fantastic variety of backgrounds, whose sole commonality is integumental phenotype that this professor cannot see beyond.

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by james.liam

[giannis]

On 6/1/2020 at 1:44 PM, james.liam said:

Grabbing a brick and going for a new 50" TV or the latest pair of Nikes is not.

This is collateral damage. Nobody is happy about collateral damage. But keep in mind that you have millions of people protesting, and, let's say, thousands of looters. That's a very small percentage of all protestors. With such a huge number of protesters, even if just 5% or 1% were looters, whole cities would be looted within an inch of their existence, whis is not the case. Focusing on the looters over the protesters is missing the forrest for the tree. Imagine if there was a big celebration of 4th of July, with thousands of normal americans celebrating, but also a couple of  racists with confederate flags misbehaving, screaming racial slurs, harassing africans and whatnot. And then I focus on them, as a representative of 4th of July festivities. That wouldn't be fair at all, wouldn't it?

 

Anyway, many will try to capitalise on the protests, and the optics of the protests, for political gain. On both sides. People should remain alert and vigilant, not to be carried away by politicians and media capitalising on the situation for selfish gain. Not all who condemn the looting actually care about small store owners. Not all who side with the protesters actually care about black lives or racism. For career politicians the whole ordeal is a massive public relations campaign.

Be wary of that, and listen to the people. Listen what the protesters have to say, listen what the looters have to say, listen what the store owners (looted or not) have to say. And keep a sense of proportionality. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by giannis
typos

[james.liam]

5 hours ago, giannis said:

This is collateral damage. Nobody is happy about collateral damage. But keep in mind that you have millions of people protesting, and, let's say, thousands of looters. That's a very small percentage of all protestors. With such a huge number of protesters, even if just 5% or 1% were looters, whole cities would be looted within an inch of their existence, whis is not the case. Focusing on the looters over the protesters is missing the forrest for the tree. Imagine if there was a big celebration of 4th of July, with thousands of normal americans celebrating, but also a couple of  racists with confederate flags misbehaving, screaming racial slurs, harassing africans and whatnot. And then I focus on them, as a representative of 4th of July festivities. That wouldn't be fair at all, wouldn't it?

 

Anyway, many will try to capitalise on the protests, and the optics of the protests, for political gain. On both sides. People should remain alert and vigilant, not to be carried away by politicians and media capitalising on the situation for selfish gain. Not all who condemn the looting actually care about small store owners. Not all who side with the protesters actually care about black lives or racism. For career politicians the whole ordeal is a massive public relations campaign.

Be wary of that, and listen to the people. Listen what the protesters have to say, listen what the looters have to say, listen what the store owners (looted or not) have to say. And keep a sense of proportionality. 

Don't be so blasé about 'collateral damage'. The very people for whom others (self-serving politicians, self-anointed 'community leaders' and especially media talking-heads) are so willing to waive the rule of Law for, are the ones most profoundly affected (middle class or aspiring individuals of minority backgrounds working, shopping at the places laid waste).  Is it all worth it for the philosophical 'greater cause'? In this discussion, there's not a single mention of the Wuhan coronavirus pandemic that struck New York like the Bubonic plague of old. What do you think permitting gatherings of tens of thousands will result in?

Whatever victories are gleaned from these mass movements will by Pyrrhic; disease will start rampaging again (nullifying the 3-month lockdown), even fewer jobs will remain and the coffers of local governments, emptied by the first wave of disease and sudden death of economic activity, won't be refilled for years.

There are ways to bring about justice and ways that result in the opposite. We are 50 years from the riots of the lat 1960's that left many cities devastated and never to return. We will now have more of the same.

Edited June 5, 2020 by james.liam

[andyturk]

1 hour ago, james.liam said:

... We are 50 years from the riots of the lat 1960's that left many cities devastated and never to return. We will now have more of the same.

I live in Oakland, California which has seen a lot of protests recently. Two nights ago, a large group downtown defied a curfew order and ended up dancing in the street. There was no looting,  no shouting at police, and no arrests. Authorities lifted the curfew the following day.

We might be past the moment of peak anger.

[james.liam]

2 minutes ago, andyturk said:

I live in Oakland, California which has seen a lot of protests recently. Two nights ago, a large group downtown defied a curfew order and ended up dancing in the street. There was no looting,  no shouting at police, and no arrests. Authorities lifted the curfew the following day.

We might be past the moment of peak anger.

..but you have yet to have that new peak of coronavirus.

[IkarusJohn]

I’m not at all sure what your point is though, James.

I get it that you don’t agree with the protesters; they should be at home social distancing; and they shouldn’t be smashing up private property and stealing.  But the protesters, the core of people on the streets seem to have a reason to be there.  Are you saying they’re all criminals?  Or that because there are some criminals, everyone should go home?

And what should the response be?  Send in the army with bayonets?  Shoot a few people?  Is there ever a situation when the powers that be should accept there might be a problem?  Or are you saying there is no problem; turn loose the dogs of war and return to normality?

Or is it all fake news?  There are no riots, no valid protesters, no over-reaction; it’s all fake?

[giannis]

2 hours ago, james.liam said:

Don't be so blasé about 'collateral damage'.

I'm not personally "blasé", but I have to use this phrase when the situation compels it and we're starting to lose focus. Also collateral damage seems to be a term that americans, patriots especially, seem familiar with and accepting of. Civilian casualties were called "collateral damage" by the government itself, when it came to the "war on terror" and the bombing of Afghanistan and Iraq. So allow me to not be embarrassed to use it for something far less valuable than human life, i.e. shoes and TVs.

Moreover, police brutality (even more so when racially motivated) is not a new thing. Many good people, would hear every now and then about this case or that incident. They probably didn't like it, as any normal person wouldn't. But, what was their *actual* reaction? Did they voice their concern and disapproval? Did they take action? Or they assumed it's an isolated case, "a few bad apples" if you will? I suspect the latter. Now many of those people seem to be voicing concern about the (proportionally few) looting incidents. They don't seem to apply the similar "isolated cases" and "few bad apples" mentality. This makes me suspicious. Suspicious about what their priorities are, where their allegiance lies, and if there's an underlying, subconscious "worldview" - to put it mildly - that causes this discrepancy in their reactions.

2 hours ago, james.liam said:

In this discussion, there's not a single mention of the Wuhan coronavirus pandemic that struck New York like the Bubonic plague of old. What do you think permitting gatherings of tens of thousands will result in?

Whatever victories are gleaned from these mass movements will by Pyrrhic;

You're right about this one. Any victory will be pyrrhic, but still a much needed victory. But it doesn't have to be, if the police exercise restraint. And police should be held to a much higher standard than a civilian, as bearers of authority and superior force. The Coronavirus complicates things indeed. But you can't plan these things, developments and history can't wait. Even though conditions could be better, they'll never be perfect. The people seem to have decided that's its a worthy trade off, given their goal and what's at stake.

Edited June 5, 2020 by giannis
typos

[james.liam]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

I’m not at all sure what your point is though, James.

I get it that you don’t agree with the protesters; they should be at home social distancing; and they shouldn’t be smashing up private property and stealing.  But the protesters, the core of people on the streets seem to have a reason to be there.  Are you saying they’re all criminals?  Or that because there are some criminals, everyone should go home?

And what should the response be?  Send in the army with bayonets?  Shoot a few people?  Is there ever a situation when the powers that be should accept there might be a problem?  Or are you saying there is no problem; turn loose the dogs of war and return to normality?

Or is it all fake news?  There are no riots, no valid protesters, no over-reaction; it’s all fake?

Why do you go to these extreme conclusions when none were implied? A violent counter reaction might provide for some (perhaps you?) an emotional catharsis but never accomplishes much in the long term. The brilliance of the US Civil Rights Movement in the 1950's and 60's at a time when the conditions were far more dire for black Americans, was the understanding that giving pretext to your opponents to lash out would neither garner sympathy from the masses nor end violent repression. It accomplished far more that momentary explosions. In this instance, the violence, callous disregard for public health will all conspire to lessen sympathy than cement it.

 

52 minutes ago, giannis said:

Any victory will be pyrrhic, but still a much needed victory. But it doesn't have to be, if the police exercise restraint. And police should be held to a much higher standard than a civilian, as bearers of authority and superior force. The Coronavirus complicates things indeed. But you can't plan these things, developments and history can't wait. Even though conditions could be better, they'll never be perfect. The people seem to have decided that's its a worthy trade off, given their goal and what's at stake.

If a victory is pyrrhic, it is a nihilistic exercise improving nothing. Whether 'The People' have decided this, in the end it matters not. Responsible local and national elected leaders are supposed to be the proverbial 'adults in the room' but instead, are beating the drums for their own self-serving needs. Cowards without a shred of integrity. Same goes for the press.

The biggest joke in NYC is the mayor, who instructed the police to 'stand down' and do nothing in the face of wide-spread pillage and then he declared his pride in his daughter who was arrested as part of a violent gathering. After being booked at the police station, she was then safely escorted to the mayor's official mansion by the very police she stood against. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by james.liam

[fotografr]

We could debate this issue for the next week but it won't make any difference to the current situation. The bottom line is that the killing of George Floyd was the last straw for black Americans and they have determined that there will be no peace in our cities until they perceive justice has prevailed. They alone will decide when this all stops--not us, not Donald Trump, not the police and not the military. If somehow Derek Chauvin and his sidekicks avoid conviction, what we've experienced over the past several days will just be a small preview of what's to come.

No matter how much we pretend that we've made great strides as a society in improving the lives and opportunities for black Americans, racial injustice and outright prejudice continue to be barriers to the fulfillment of their dreams and aspirations.

[james.liam]

1 hour ago, fotografr said:

We could debate this issue for the next week but it won't make any difference to the current situation. The bottom line is that the killing of George Floyd was the last straw for black Americans and they have determined that there will be no peace in our cities until they perceive justice has prevailed. They alone will decide when this all stops--not us, not Donald Trump, not the police and not the military. If somehow Derek Chauvin and his sidekicks avoid conviction, what we've experienced over the past several days will just be a small preview of what's to come.

No matter how much we pretend that we've made great strides as a society in improving the lives and opportunities for black Americans, racial injustice and outright prejudice continue to be barriers to the fulfillment of their dreams and aspirations.

Ok then. Savor the chaos, because you seem to feel its somehow justifiable, or at the least something to be tolerated because the cause be just. And justified whenever someone decides it to be so, with real grievances (as is the case here), or otherwise. This is how societies disintegrate; take a glance at Venezuela.

Have a safe weekend, all.

[IkarusJohn]

3 hours ago, james.liam said:

Why do you go to these extreme conclusions when none were implied? A violent counter reaction might provide for some (perhaps you?) an emotional catharsis but never accomplishes much in the long term. The brilliance of the US Civil Rights Movement in the 1950's and 60's at a time when the conditions were far more dire for black Americans, was the understanding that giving pretext to your opponents to lash out would neither garner sympathy from the masses nor end violent repression. It accomplished far more that momentary explosions. In this instance, the violence, callous disregard for public health will all conspire to lessen sympathy than cement it.. 

I wasn’t really seeking a rehash of your previous posts, James. I was genuinely interested in what your view was.  I draw no conclusions; I was hoping to move the discussion on to understand what you are for.  I don’t think anyone is in any doubt about what you’re against.

For myself, I see things very differently to you.  There was undoubtedly charm, bravery and moral high ground in the actions in places like Selma and Birmingham, and in Ghandi’s protests, but they weren’t non-violent.  Violence was the point.  There are plenty of instances where exactly the sort of violence you’re witnessing now have achieved change.  The sad thing is that the more violent, revolutionary change, seems to have succeeded only where there is a power vacuum.

Now, some would say that is what you have.  Strong State Government for what it’s worth, and a President who is starting to look unstable.  He has sought out the opportunity to look strong, but it’s a gamble.

Your view might be that any victory might be Pyrrhic, but that really depends how you view victory (what the aims are, if any) and how the populace and key power brokers view the situation.  Senior politicians in some quarters acknowledge there’s an issue (even if you don’t like their politics), retired generals and former Presidents expressing concerns, GOP Senators getting critical.

The mistake would be to discount the grievance of the many because you dislike the methods of the few.  Interesting you choose the covid-19 outbreak to base your criticism.  That may be fair, but I don’t think the disastrous government response to the pandemic can really be laid at the feet of the people protesting at those responsible.

Just for the record, I haven’t seen anyone in this discussion anywhere on this forum condoning the rampant theft and property destruction; they’re just not seizing on it as an opportunity to discredit the underlying protest and what looks like a cry for a real need for change.  I may have misunderstood your original comment about African-Americans being better off.  Hence my question.

Edited June 5, 2020 by IkarusJohn

[james.liam]

44 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I wasn’t really seeking a rehash of your previous posts, James. I was genuinely interested in what your view was.  I draw no conclusions; I was hoping to move the discussion on to understand what you are for.  I don’t think anyone is in any doubt about what you’re against.

For myself, I see things very differently to you.  There was undoubtedly charm, bravery and moral high ground in the actions in places like Selma and Birmingham, and in Ghandi’s protests, but they weren’t non-violent.  Violence was the point.  There are plenty of instances where exactly the sort of violence you’re witnessing now have achieved change.  The sad thing is that the more violent, revolutionary change, seems to have succeeded only where there is a power vacuum.

Now, some would say that is what you have.  Strong State Government for what it’s worth, and a President who is starting to look unstable.  He has sought out the opportunity to look strong, but it’s a gamble.

Your view might be that any victory might be Pyrrhic, but that really depends how you view victory (what the aims are, if any) and how the populace and key power brokers view the situation.  Senior politicians in some quarters acknowledge there’s an issue (even if you don’t like their politics), retired generals and former Presidents expressing concerns, GOP Senators getting critical.

The mistake would be to discount the grievance of the many because you dislike the methods of the few.  Interesting you choose the covid-19 outbreak to base your criticism.  That may be fair, but I don’t think the disastrous government response to the pandemic can really be laid at the feet of the people protesting at those responsible.

Just for the record, I have seen anyone in this discussion anywhere on this forum condoning the rampant theft and property destruction; they’re just not seizing on it as an opportunity to discredit the underlying protest and what looks like a cry for a real need for change.  I may have misunderstood your original comment about African-Americans being better off.  Hence my question.

What am I for? What am I against? 

Who can argue what happened in Minneapolis isn't the act of a depraved man in authority? Who can argue that these acts have been long covered up to spare governments embarrassment? Who can argue that way too many with a gun, a badge and state-sanctioned dominion over life & death are adequately screened for sociopathy or psychopathy? Who can argue that there isn't inequity in the quality of US primary and secondary education?  Who can argue for having a generation of young black men locked up for minor drug offenses? Why is there a meaningless "war on drugs" for decades that's left us poorer and more divided than ever? These are structural and attitudinal changes that scream for immediate reform. 

But at the same time, I cannot but feel the same deep sadness for the tens, maybe hundreds of thousands whose homes and business are ashes, whose losses are NOT covered by insurance (losses due to riots are usually excluded from policies) and who must now rebuild their lives with little left.

There are better ways to fix things than burning everything to the ground.

Edited June 5, 2020 by james.liam

[fotografr]

2 hours ago, james.liam said:

What am I for? What am I against? 

Who can argue what happened in Minneapolis isn't the act of a depraved man in authority? Who can argue that these acts have been long covered up to spare governments embarrassment? Who can argue that way too many with a gun, a badge and state-sanctioned dominion over life & death are adequately screened for sociopathy or psychopathy? Who can argue that there isn't inequity in the quality of US primary and secondary education?  Who can argue for having a generation of young black men locked up for minor drug offenses? Why is there a meaningless "war on drugs" for decades that's left us poorer and more divided than ever? These are structural and attitudinal changes that scream for immediate reform. 

But at the same time, I cannot but feel the same deep sadness for the tens, maybe hundreds of thousands whose homes and business are ashes, whose losses are NOT covered by insurance (losses due to riots are usually excluded from policies) and who must now rebuild their lives with little left.

There are better ways to fix things than burning everything to the ground.

I actually agree with what you wrote here. The problem is with what you didn't write. You offer no alternatives to the actions you're criticizing. If you're going to condemn what's going on, suggest a more effective alternative. Black Americans have been trying to get the country's attention for years but these events just keep happening over and over. In his remarks at the funeral for George Floyd, Reverend Al Sharpton recited the names of about 20 black people who have died just in the last couple of years as a result of excessive force by police. Each time there were outbursts and demonstrations, only to be followed by, in most cases, exoneration of the officers involved. Whether you agree with the tactics or not, you'd have to agree that this time they have our attention.

Do I like the chaos? Of course not. I get no pleasure out of seeing my beautiful town ravaged. I love this place. Good friends of mine have had their stores demolished and businesses ruined. I hate to see this happen, but I absolutely understand the rage and frustration of the perpetrators. Nothing black Americans have done previously has gotten the attention of the country as much as this chaos and destruction. Businesses can be repaired and inventories replaced but lost lives are gone forever. Justice, then peace.

 

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[james.liam]

You do agree with the chaos if you put a hierarchy where chaos is acceptable  if someone doesn’t get their ill-defined notion of Justice. The ante goes up beyond holding murderers and abettors accountable. All the rage now is dismantling the police. How about Seizing and Redistributing wealth? Reparations for those meeting  some racial % criteria Defined by self-identified “experts”?
Think really hard and remind yourself of its 20th century precedents and consequences.

 And BTW, those businesses destroyed, especially in predominantly black neighborhoods, will not return. I saw this in NY in the 60’s and 70’s growing up in Brooklyn. No business will live with the specter of cyclic destruction because “justice isn’t served”. They are not social service agencies, and the jobs they provide aren’t zero-sum games  

As for solutions? The first step in seeking a solution is Identifying and defining the problem at hand. I’m a physician by training and don’t leap to a remedy before I get a grip on the multi-faceted nature of any malady. Or create greater issues with a poorly-considered “balm”.