Next generation M glass...

[Donut]

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So apparently Leica are working on a new generation of M lenses. According to the rumours here, we are looking at high speed lenses built to resolve the full capability of a forthcoming high resolution M camera. 

I am not sure as to whether or not higher resolving capacity is necessary, however. Modern M glass on the Leica SL2 resolves 47MP with no hiccups, even the 50mm Summilux from 2004. 

Thoughts? 

[james.liam]

9 minutes ago, Donut said:

So apparently Leica are working on a new generation of M lenses. According to the rumours here, we are looking at high speed lenses built to resolve the full capability of a forthcoming high resolution M camera. 

I am not sure as to whether or not higher resolving capacity is necessary, however. Modern M glass on the Leica SL2 resolves 47MP with no hiccups, even the 50mm Summilux from 2004. 

Thoughts? 

It's more about maintaining a sense of value-added and producing new products that will always outperform the next sensor. More 'marketing' in that sense. 

[Fedro]

good question, I have no idea what to make of it. Like you, I find that the M lenses resolve well the SL2 and M10M and I am not sure how many more megapixels can be added to the M without adding IBIS and without AF etc

a lot of it likely has to do with delivering continuous improvement, the best and latest and fastest and bla bla bla

I would love to see a 35 Nocti, which would not surprise me at this point, as others have already broken the 1.4 barrier several times

And I may be a buyer of one/two jazzed up lenses, for example a closer focusing fast 50, but mostly happy with what I have (which is already too much as is!)

[colint544]

Interesting to speculate that they might push the 50 Summilux ASPH up to a 1.2 aperture. That's effectively a modern version of the original Noctilux.

I have the black chrome 50 Summilux ASPH. It's a great lens, but it occasionally displays that annoying modern trait of 'onion ring' in out of focus highlights at 1.4. It's the trade-off I suppose, for cheaper (than hand-ground) pressed glass aspherical elements in modern lenses.

I wonder if future lenses will be able to phase out the dreaded 'onion ring' effect?

[james.liam]

15 minutes ago, colint544 said:

Interesting to speculate that they might push the 50 Summilux ASPH up to a 1.2 aperture. That's effectively a modern version of the original Noctilux.

I have the black chrome 50 Summilux ASPH. It's a great lens, but it occasionally displays that annoying modern trait of 'onion ring' in out of focus highlights at 1.4. It's the trade-off I suppose, for cheaper (than hand-ground) pressed glass aspherical elements in modern lenses.

I wonder if future lenses will be able to phase out the dreaded 'onion ring' effect?

It will give them reason to raise the MSRP of the 'standard' lenses to that of the 50 APO. Does one REALLY need ƒ/0.95 on the latest digital M? Is a 2 mm plain of focus a meaningful attribute? Just wondering.

[Fedro]

50 Lux focusing at 1.2 and MFD of 0.5 meters pls

[pgk]

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I have to be honest and say that I struggle to understand the desire for increasing MPixels/resolution. I can't fit all my existing photos which are printed and framed on the walls as it is and these are from 18 & 24Mpixel cameras. Faster lens yes, but why not ally these to high ISO/low noise sensors so that they push boundaries in a different way - that said for an M the rangefinder focus will start to struggle unless this too is upgraded.

[Jeff S]

Unless Leica plans to sell all these super fast lenses to young (but rich) folks with great eyesight, soon everyone will need an L mount Leica to accommodate these behemoths.  Either that, or finally release an (often debated) EVF-based M or hybrid/electronic RF variant. 

Jeff

[pgk]

1 minute ago, Jeff S said:

Either that, or finally release an (often debated) EVF-based M or hybrid/electronic RF variant.

It might be the solution.

[jaeger]

a pin hole has more than enough light to fill a 47MP sensor even 100MP so what is high res lens, I don't get it. 

I think the M needs to refine the RF coupling system to handle fast lenses, it's currently not accurate enough to handle the shallow DOF (most summilux users are suffering).  Focus shifting is another issue needs to be addressed in their lens department.

If you still hear people say "you need to send your new lens and body in for calibration" it's still a rubbish system.  What they did is working with the problem and not working to fix the problem.  best luck to all of us. 

[Rob L]

I think Cosina Voigtlander  is perhaps putting some hurt on Leica. With 5 excellent Noctons, 21 1.4, 35 1.2, 40 1.2, 50 1.2, 75 1.5 and soon, I'm sure an M mount version of the 50 APO (outstanding lens!), not to mention the older 21 3.5 and 35 2.5 Color Scopar. And certainly more to follow. None of these costs more than $1100.

[Steve Ash]

I think the whole discussion is less about out-resolving the next sensor generation but to challenge the future competitors products as those are moving on as well.

To rest on your achievements is preparing your own death.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Steve Ash

[Fedro]

4 minutes ago, Rob L said:

None of these costs more than $1100.

now if that was the upgrade intended for the next generation of M lenses, it would get interesting. But I won't hold my breath

if anything prices will go up, I guess

[james.liam]

4 minutes ago, Rob L said:

I think Cosina Voigtlander  is perhaps putting some hurt on Leica. With 5 excellent Noctons, 21 1.4, 35 1.2, 40 1.2, 50 1.2, 75 1.5 and soon, I'm sure an M mount version of the 50 APO (outstanding lens!), not to mention the older 21 3.5 and 35 2.5 Color Scopar. And certainly more to follow. None of these costs more than $1100.

Agree re: most recent Voigtländer lenses. Build quality is superb and the optics are first-rate. Bound to put pressure in Leica for value-added. The most insane disparity has to be with the 1,4/21 and 50APO, as you mention.

[evikne]

New M glass in the 35 and 50 mm range is always exciting. 🤩

But I will not consider buying anything myself unless they are not too big or overly expensive.

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, Steve Ash said:

I think the whole discussion is less about out-resolving the next sensor generation but to challenge the future competitors products as those are moving on as well.

 

The phrase ‘a lens out-resolving a sensor’ has generated much discussion here lately. Hopefully without another debate, you might find this article by Roger Cicala of interest... specifically the Appendix at the end, “Why perpetual megapixels are stupid”...

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

Jeff

Edited May 7, 2020 by Jeff S

[Donut]

Seems that there's a general consensus forming here: The M glass is already fantastic, with any improvement in resolving power being indiscernible to most. And I can only imagine the impact it would have on the price.

I actually got my M lenses with the intention of keeping it for life, and passing it down when I can no longer pick up a camera.

If they are making nextgen glass, 3 recommended changes could be: 

1. Stiffer aperture rings.
2. Better flare control. I'm not that much of voightlander fan, but I do love the sunstars they produce. The modern Leica glass (at least the 24 elmar, 35 cron, and 50 lux) tend to be very unpredictable when shooting into the sun.
3. Smaller 35 lux - though I do understand that the laws of physics come into play with this one. 

[pgk]

41 minutes ago, Donut said:

Smaller 35 lux - though I do understand that the laws of physics come into play with this one. 

It would certainly be a goal worth achieving.

[james.liam]

31 minutes ago, Donut said:

If they are making nextgen glass, recommended changes could be: 

1. Better flare control. I'm not that much of voightlander fan, but I do love the sunstars they produce. The modern Leica glass (at least the 24 elmar, 35 cron, and 50 lux) tend to be very unpredictable when shooting into the sun.
2. Smaller 35 lux - though I do understand that the laws of physics come into play with this one. 

The 35 Summicron and 50 Summilux are designs from the film era. The former has been 'improved' in some unspoken fashion to better suit digital sensors. We can assume change in coatings as well (or maybe not). 

As for the 35 Summilux, its dimensions are 56mm x 46mm and weighs in at 320 gms

The Voigtlander 1,2/35 v. III dimensions are 60 mm x 50 mm and weighs in at 332 gms

Both are dainty compared with the ZM 1,4/35; 63,2 mm x 65.2 mm & weighs in at 381 gms

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pgk]

1 hour ago, james.liam said:

As for the 35 Summilux, its dimensions are 56mm x 46mm and weighs in at 320 gms

But the pre-aspheric weighed 245 g according to the wiki here. It’s a delightfully diminutive lens. A high performance design of this size, with a small but efficient hood, would be an update with having.